Trust Me: Cults, Extreme Belief, and Manipulation

This week’s guest is Makelle Bistline, who grew up in the polygamist sect the FLDS and became one of the wives of self-proclaimed prophet Samuel Bateman–ultimately playing a crucial role in bringing him down. Makelle did not appear in the Netflix series Trust Me, which follows how Lola’s mom got him arrested, but her involvement in the takedown was instrumental. In part one, she reveals what it was like growing up under Warren Jeffs’ teachings, falling asleep to recordings of his voice, and watching Sam Bateman claim to be the new prophet.

Makelle explains how secretly listening to Taylor Swift helped her question what she’d been taught about the outside world, the ways she resisted Bateman’s control, and how escalating pressure and being sent away eventually led her to become his 22nd wife. Next week, she’ll return to share how she began sneakily communicating with Lola’s mom and passing evidence to authorities.
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This week, the girls are joined again by Felicia Rosario, survivor of the cult at Sarah Lawrence, led by a man named Larry Ray. Today Felicia, who previously came on the show along with fellow survivor Daniel Levin, explains how Larry drew her in over time by love bombing her, winning over her social circle first, and using his genuinely powerful connections to give himself a mystique and an air of authority.
Felicia shares more about Larry’s crimes and abuse, what made her decide to finally finally decide to leave, and the life she’s built for herself since—as an expert witness testifying about coercion. She explains some of the factors one can point to in court to establish that someone has been under coercive control. They also discuss the Cornell case and how common it is for people to behave unexpectedly when they’ve just experienced something traumatic.
SOURCES
Felicia Rosario Consulting
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This week, author and historian Stephen Kinzer joins Trust Me to discuss his book, Poisoner in Chief, and its subject: chemist Sidney Gottlieb, who led mind control experiments in the CIA’s Project MKUltra. Stephen explains who Gottlieb was and how he came to lead this harrowing attempt to control the human mind, what Operation Paperclip was (the US saved doctor-torturers from Nazi Germany and Japan and gave them jobs), and how the CIA began experimenting on subjects in other countries in horrific ways—all in the name of patriotism and “fighting communism.”
Stephen describes Gottlieb’s obsession with LSD and how the CIA began conducting drug experiments on inmates, people in psychiatric institutions, and other unwitting folks. He discusses the hunt for the perfect mind control tactic, how the word “brainwashing” can’t be separated from the Red Scare, and how none of the experiments were fruitful.
Plus, whether Gottlieb experienced any remorse later in life, and how we have the CIA to thank for the explosion of LSD onto the American scene (and, ironically, the major role it played in the anti-war movement).
SOURCES
Poisoner in Chief: Sidney Gottlieb and the CIA Search for Mind Control

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This week is part two with advocate and therapist Renee Spencer, who sued the Jesus Christians, aka the “kidney cult,” after they recruited her daughter. Last week, Renee explained how she realized her daughter Ellicia’s communication was being controlled, and this week she picks back up on Ellicia’s mysterious whereabouts around the world--going wherever the group sent her, cutting off emotional contact, and virtually disappearing from Renee's life.
Renee shares how the group’s leader, Dave McKay, began accusing her of being a Satan worshipper, which was used to demonize her and keep Ellicia away. Renee shares how she’s connected with other parents, what she learned about some of the things her daughter has been through (including their highly punitive “grievance” system), and how Renee finally took Dave McKay to court.
SOURCES
Recover From Coercive Control
SOCCHG
CIFS Australia
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This week is part 1 with advocate and therapist Renee Spencer, whose daughter was recruited into the Jesus Christians: a group commonly referred to as the “kidney cult” for their practice of encouraging members to donate their kidneys to strangers. Renee shares about her and her daughter Ellicia’s close relationship, how Ellicia suddenly stopped contacting Renee, and why Renee tried to be accepting of her daughter’s choices–even while slowly learning that Ellicia had joined a mysterious group of traveling Christians and was being isolated from her former life.
She explains how Ellicia was initially recruited through YouTube, how Ellicia told Renee she was engaged to someone from the group after just a couple of months, and the minimal contact Renee was allowed when she visited. They discuss what she learned about Ellicia’s new husband Joseph, the whipping “trials” the group’s leader had organized to teach Joseph’s family a lesson, and how Renee discovered that her daughter’s communication had been far more controlled than she even realized.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.