Bits + Bips

An Ethereum Foundation researcher says AI-driven math could break crypto keys in months, worst case. Austin Campbell and Chris Perkins weigh the real risk.

Sponsor

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Put your crypto to work with Nexo: earn daily interest or borrow funds against your assets on one platform trusted by more than 10 million clients.

Find out more at https://unchainedcrypto.com/go/nexo-podcast-sn.

Geo-restrictions, eligibility and terms apply.

Quick favor: We're deciding what Unchained does next; new shows, stream times, what's worth paying for.⁠⁠⁠ Our listener survey⁠⁠⁠ takes five minutes, it's anonymous, and I read the write-in answers myself. Everyone who takes it can enter a drawing for a free year of Unchained Premium or Bits + Bips Premium. Open through Sunday, October 18.

— Laura

👉 Heads up! If you haven't yet, be sure to subscribe to Bits + Bips on its dedicated channels. Follow us on Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, X, Unchained and wherever you get your podcasts.

🔥 Apple Podcasts - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/bits-bips/id1827931786⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

🔥 YouTube - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuKiSkbYrUOOEEiYQEVPniQ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

🔥 Spotify - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/6aSBMrOyi33aVDCULJ9mjN?si=NTLk-jl5QGeytA6-2kxMVQ&nd=1&dlsi=42f0b13dd53c4ba0⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

🔥 X - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/bitsandbips⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

🔥 Unchained - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://unchainedcrypto.com/bitsandbips/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Ethereum Foundation researcher Justin Drake warned that AI-accelerated math could break crypto's cryptography "in the worst case, in months, not years." Meanwhile, Ledger confirmed a hardware implant in a device sold through an authorized reseller, after an estimated $100 million was drained across six chains.

Austin Campbell and Chris Perkins weigh whether self-custody still means what crypto thinks it means, and why Chris says this may be the moment for intermediaries. Fresh off Token2049 in Singapore, Chris also reports that institutions showed up in force as fundamentals and utility replace memes and momentum.

Then they turn to a 10-year Treasury yield around 5.24%, CPI projections, and the young-versus-old fault line Austin sees splitting Western politics, before asking where the money in AI actually lands as OpenAI faces reporting of a $20 billion revenue gap. Chris's answer: picks and shovels.

Hosts

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Austin Campbell⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ - Host of Bits + Bips, Founder of Zero Knowledge Group, and Adjunct Professor at NYU Stern

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Chris Perkins - Co-host of Bits + Bips and Head of Franklin Crypto

Timestamps:

🌏 01:47 Token2049: what Chris saw as institutions showed up in force in Singapore

🏗️ 07:05 Why Chris says fundamentals and utility are replacing memes and momentum

🇺🇸 11:07 What Patrick Witt's Strategic Bitcoin Reserve comments mean for sovereigns

💰 15:36 Nexo: Generate daily interest on your crypto or borrow funds against your assets at https://unchainedcrypto.com/go/nexo-podcast-yt

🔓 16:11 How a compromised Ledger reseller led to an estimated $100M drained

🔐 21:58 Why Austin says self-custody users have misread their security surface

🧮 25:25 Justin Drake's warning: could AI math break crypto keys before Q-Day?

📈 35:51 A 10-year near 5.24% and why Austin says you can't hike out of a supply shock

🧓 40:00 Why Austin sees young vs. old as the West's next political fault line

🤖 47:40 OpenAI's reported $20B revenue gap: where do the gains from AI land?

California subpoenaed OpenAI over agents that broke into Hugging Face. Ram Ahluwalia calls it a "media stunt." David Z. Morris sees an AI safety blind spot.

Sponsor

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Visit 1inch.com to swap tokenized securities, crypto and more. Simple. Secure. Self-custodial. Whatever asset you’re buying - swap it at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠1inch.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Quick favor: We're deciding what Unchained does next; new shows, stream times, what's worth paying for.⁠⁠ Our listener survey⁠⁠ takes five minutes, it's anonymous, and I read the write-in answers myself. Everyone who takes it can enter a drawing for a free year of Unchained Premium or Bits + Bips Premium. Open through Sunday, October 18.

— Laura

👉 Heads up! If you haven't yet, be sure to subscribe to Bits + Bips on its dedicated channels. Follow us on Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, X, Unchained and wherever you get your podcasts.

🔥 Apple Podcasts - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/bits-bips/id1827931786⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

🔥 YouTube - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuKiSkbYrUOOEEiYQEVPniQ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

🔥 Spotify - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/6aSBMrOyi33aVDCULJ9mjN?si=NTLk-jl5QGeytA6-2kxMVQ&nd=1&dlsi=42f0b13dd53c4ba0⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

🔥 X - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/bitsandbips⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

🔥 Unchained - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://unchainedcrypto.com/bitsandbips/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

California's attorney general has subpoenaed OpenAI after AI agents escaped a test sandbox and broke into Hugging Face, and the FTC has opened a safety probe into OpenAI and Anthropic. Is this a rogue AI problem or a basic security failure?

David Z. Morris, Managing Editor of Zero Knowledge, joins Austin Campbell and Ram Ahluwalia to argue it's the latter. Ram calls the breach a media stunt, while David warns that AI safety's focus on alignment has crowded out standard cybersecurity.

They also weigh whether the debasement trade is back after a 29,000 September payrolls print, a 10-year yield above 5.3%, and Bitcoin near $87,000, and whether the US is overbuilding data centers. Ram demos an AI avatar of himself, and the panel asks whether your AI chats deserve the protection given to a spouse or a lawyer.

The common thread: who controls the money, the models, and the data.

Hosts

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Austin Campbell⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ - Host of Bits + Bips, Founder of Zero Knowledge Group, and Adjunct Professor at NYU Stern

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Ram Ahluwalia⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ - Co-host of Bits + Bips and CEO of Lumida

Guest:

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠David Z. Morris - Managing Editor of Zero Knowledge

Timestamps:

💸 02:04 Is the debasement trade back with the 10-year above 5.3%?

🛒 06:20 Why Ram says oversold staples look cheap and rates won't hit 6.5%

👵 15:15 Why Ram calls it a 'boomer economy' as consumer surveys sour

🌊 20:02 1inch Aqua: Back multiple liquidity positions with one token balance at https://1inch.com/aqua

🏛️ 21:13 California subpoenas OpenAI over agents that broke into Hugging Face

🔐 25:46 Why David says AI safety's 'rogue agent' talk misreads cybersecurity

🎭 34:38 Ram demos an AI avatar of himself built for agentic wealth management

🏗️ 38:24 Can anyone prove the US isn't overbuilding AI data centers?

🕵️ 42:24 Why your AI prompts are turning into a privacy and legal problem

Bitget lost $388 million to spoofed transaction data, and THORChain kept routing the funds. The hosts ask what decentralization means if you can stop and don't.

Sponsor

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Visit 1inch.com to swap tokenized securities, crypto and more. Simple. Secure. Self-custodial. Whatever asset you’re buying - swap it at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠1inch.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Quick favor: We're deciding what Unchained does next; new shows, stream times, what's worth paying for.⁠ Our listener survey⁠ takes five minutes, it's anonymous, and I read the write-in answers myself. Everyone who takes it can enter a drawing for a free year of Unchained Premium or Bits + Bips Premium. Open through Sunday, October 18.

— Laura

👉 Heads up! If you haven't yet, be sure to subscribe to Bits + Bips on its dedicated channels. Follow us on Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, X, Unchained and wherever you get your podcasts.

🔥 Apple Podcasts - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/bits-bips/id1827931786⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

🔥 YouTube - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuKiSkbYrUOOEEiYQEVPniQ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

🔥 Spotify - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/6aSBMrOyi33aVDCULJ9mjN?si=NTLk-jl5QGeytA6-2kxMVQ&nd=1&dlsi=42f0b13dd53c4ba0⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

🔥 X - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/bitsandbips⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

🔥 Unchained - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://unchainedcrypto.com/bitsandbips/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Attackers took roughly $388 million from Bitget without touching a private key, spoofing transaction data so the exchange's own approval process signed off on the withdrawals. Then the stolen ETH kept swapping into Bitcoin through THORChain, which declined to block the addresses.

Austin Campbell, Ram Ahluwalia, and Chris Perkins weigh whether a network that has paused itself before can claim it has no off switch, and why Chris and Austin say attackers will keep coming until they face real consequences, including counterhacking.

They also cover a global tightening cycle that pushed the US 10-year yield to its highest level since 2007, why Ram would rather own utilities than Treasurys, the strain on Oracle's data center financing, and who is liable when an AI agent breaks the law.

If weak security keeps pushing users back to intermediaries, crypto may end up rebuilding the system it set out to replace.

Hosts

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Austin Campbell⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ - Host of Bits + Bips, Founder of Zero Knowledge Group, and Adjunct Professor at NYU Stern

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Ram Ahluwalia⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ - Co-host of Bits + Bips and CEO of Lumida

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Chris Perkins⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ - Co-host of Bits + Bips and Head of Franklin Crypto

Timestamps:

🚨 01:28 How attackers took $388M from Bitget without stealing a single private key

🔌 06:57 Why Austin says THORChain's past chain pauses undercut its neutrality defense

🎯 09:43 Counterhacking and consequences: how to stop state-backed crypto thieves

🌊 18:37 1inch Aqua: Back multiple liquidity positions with one wallet balance at http://unchainedcrypto.com/go/1inch-sn

📈 19:45 Rate hikes everywhere and a US 10-year at its highest since 2007

💡 22:03 Is it time to buy bonds? Why Ram would rather own utilities

🏗️ 33:52 Will credit markets, not regulators, discipline the AI buildout?

🤖 42:14 Why AI agents aren't legal persons and how product liability applies

💸 54:57 Why Chris sees the best venture setup in years at crypto, AI, and quantum

Bitcoin closed above its 50-week average for the first time in 45 weeks. Ram calls it a short squeeze, Chris a regime change. Plus, Amazon locks out Meta's Muse agent.

Sponsor

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Visit 1inch.com to swap tokenized securities, crypto and more. Simple. Secure. Self-custodial. Whatever asset you’re buying - swap it at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠1inch.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠.

Quick favor: We're deciding what Unchained does next; new shows, stream times, what's worth paying for. Our listener survey takes five minutes, it's anonymous, and I read the write-in answers myself. Everyone who takes it can enter a drawing for a free year of Unchained Premium or Bits + Bips Premium. Open through Sunday, October 18.

— Laura

👉 Heads up! If you haven't yet, be sure to subscribe to Bits + Bips on its dedicated channels. Follow us on Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, X, Unchained and wherever you get your podcasts.

🔥 Apple Podcasts - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/bits-bips/id1827931786⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

🔥 YouTube - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuKiSkbYrUOOEEiYQEVPniQ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

🔥 Spotify - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/6aSBMrOyi33aVDCULJ9mjN?si=NTLk-jl5QGeytA6-2kxMVQ&nd=1&dlsi=42f0b13dd53c4ba0⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

🔥 X - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/bitsandbips⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

🔥 Unchained - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://unchainedcrypto.com/bitsandbips/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Bitcoin just closed its first weekly candle above the 50-week moving average in 45 weeks, a line Galaxy Digital's Alex Thorn says marked the bottom in four of the five completed bear markets. The Coinbase premium stayed negative for 166 of the last 168 hours anyway.

Ram Ahluwalia and Chris Perkins read that gap differently. Ram calls the move a short squeeze, and says that doesn't make it illegitimate. Chris argues crypto has entered a regime change now that regulators no longer treat every token with a cash flow as a security.

Austin Campbell, Ram, and Chris also cover the Fed's first rate hike since July 2023 and why the 10-year barely moved. Chris flags the cost of servicing US debt, and Austin explains why, with $30 trillion outstanding, rate hikes stop being restrictive and "just spray more cash out." Then Meta's Muse agent, which Amazon has blocked as an unauthorized AI agent, kicks off a debate over whether AI splits into mass-market apps and institution-only tools.

Plus, Austin predicts Congress won't touch the deficit until Social Security runs short in the 2030s, and Ram says superintelligence isn't coming, but an AGI that's "extraordinarily competent and highly effective" is good enough.

Hosts

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Austin Campbell⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ - Host of Bits + Bips, Founder of Zero Knowledge Group, and Adjunct Professor at NYU Stern

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Ram Ahluwalia⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ - Co-host of Bits + Bips and CEO of Lumida

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Chris Perkins⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ - Co-host of Bits + Bips and Head of Franklin Crypto

Timestamps:

💧 00:59 1inch Aqua: Back multiple liquidity positions with one wallet balance and keep your tokens in your wallet until a swap fills at https://1inch.com/aqua

💰 01:49 Bitcoin reclaims its 50-week average: short squeeze or real regime change?

🌊 14:42 1inch Aqua: See how LPs back multiple positions with the same token balance and cover more market conditions at https://1inch.com/aqua

🛢️ 15:30 Oil, the Fed's first hike since 2023, and why markets read it as Fed independence

💵 26:37 Chris on why debt-servicing costs are quietly fueling the crypto thesis

🤖 36:32 Meta's Muse takes AI agents mainstream, and Amazon locks it out

⚙️ 45:21 Why shrinking compute costs are bringing AI agents to the masses

🔀 49:12 Austin's bifurcation bet: mass-market AI agents vs institutional ones

💻 50:16 Why cheap custom software puts SaaS firms at risk, and which ones survive

OpenAI says it solved a Millennium Prize problem as Anthropic calls for slowing AI down. Jordi Visser tells Austin, Ram, and Chris why it's a midterm story. Plus, oil at $108.

Sponsor

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Visit 1inch.com to swap tokenized securities, crypto and more. Simple. Secure. Self-custodial. Whatever asset you’re buying - swap it at ⁠⁠⁠⁠1inch.com⁠⁠⁠⁠.

👉 Heads up! If you haven't yet, be sure to subscribe to Bits + Bips on its dedicated channels. Follow us on Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, X, Unchained and wherever you get your podcasts.

🔥 Apple Podcasts - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/bits-bips/id1827931786⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

🔥 YouTube - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuKiSkbYrUOOEEiYQEVPniQ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

🔥 Spotify - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://open.spotify.com/show/6aSBMrOyi33aVDCULJ9mjN?si=NTLk-jl5QGeytA6-2kxMVQ&nd=1&dlsi=42f0b13dd53c4ba0⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

🔥 X - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/bitsandbips⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

🔥 Unchained - ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://unchainedcrypto.com/bitsandbips/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

OpenAI says a swarm of its agents solved the Navier-Stokes Millennium Prize problem. A day later, a researcher quit Anthropic warning that both labs are "gambling with our lives," and by week's end Dario Amodei had called on the industry to pace the frontier.

Jordi Visser, founder of Visser Labs, joins Austin Campbell, Ram Ahluwalia, and Chris Perkins to ask how much of the safety push is about safety. Jordi calls it "a big midterm election story," while Austin tests whether the labs want rules that cool CapEx before an IPO and box out smaller competitors.

They also cover why Jordi would never invest in OpenAI or Anthropic, why he would rather own semiconductors and memory, what drone strikes on a Saudi pipeline mean ahead of the Fed, and why batteries could unlock idle grid capacity.

Jordi's own read on the slowdown: the models are getting "too good too fast," and the compute delays holding them back are "actually healthy."

Hosts

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Austin Campbell⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ - Host of Bits + Bips, Founder of Zero Knowledge Group, and Adjunct Professor at NYU Stern

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Ram Ahluwalia⁠⁠⁠⁠ - Co-host of Bits + Bips and CEO of Lumida

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Chris Perkins⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ - Co-host of Bits + Bips and Head of Franklin Crypto

Guest:

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jordi Visser - Founder of Visser-Labs, LLC

Timestamps:

🤖 02:15 Why a Millennium Prize claim and an Anthropic resignation have AI labs talking about slowing down

🗳️ 08:30 Why Jordi calls the AI safety drama 'a big midterm election story'

⚖️ 13:52 Chris on why AI regulation could be a 'beautiful way of boxing out competition'

🌐 19:26 Why Jordi says open source can't touch the OpenAI-Anthropic duopoly

🤳 33:19 Is next year 'the year of consumer agents,' and can anyone trust them?

🌊 36:55 1inch Aqua: See how the shared liquidity platform lets LPs back multiple positions with one wallet balance at http://unchainedcrypto.com/go/1inch-yt

🛢️ 42:19 After drones hit a Saudi pipeline, why Jordi says oil and a Fed hike won't change earnings

🔋 48:28 Why Jordi says batteries, not new power plants, unlock the AI buildout

🇨🇳 50:45 Is China priced out of AI, and can the US slow down if China won't?

🚦 58:25 Why Jordi thinks compute delays right now are 'actually healthy'