The Rational Reminder Podcast

Are index funds a silent disruptor? Or are the concerns overblown? In this grab-your-popcorn episode, Michael Green returns to the show after his previous appearance elicited a wave of compelling feedback from listeners. These included very smart individuals in academia and practice who were interested in hearing a counter perspective. Joining Michael today for a lively debate is Randolph Cohen, Senior Lecturer of Entrepreneurial Management in the Finance Unit at Harvard Business School. In our conversation, Michael shares his deep concerns about how index funds and target-date funds might be distorting financial markets, honing in on the tension between market efficiency and price elasticity. Randolph counters with an academically grounded perspective, drawing on his PhD and years of research and teaching at one of the world’s leading business schools. With Ben and Cameron moderating, the discussion explores both sides without reaching a definitive conclusion. Tune in to witness this spirited, nuanced exchange and decide where you stand! Key Points From This Episode:   (0:00:14) Introducing Michael Green, Randolph Cohen, and today’s topics of debate. (0:06:00) Defining passive investing, distinguishing between the two different meanings of “the rise of passive investing”, and how much of the market is currently held by passive investors. (0:12:53) Michael’s concerns with the high levels of passive investing and Randy’s response. (0:20:55) Addressing the proliferation of target-date funds and their use in different scenarios. (0:28:48) Debating risk in the market, raised valuations, and retirement savings diversification. (0:42:22) A breakdown of the biggest thing Michael and Randy disagree on: how passive investing is impacting stock market valuations. (0:57:06) Answering the question: does inelasticity rise with passive, and how does it shape the impact of active managers? (01:06:14) Unpacking whether the rise of passive has made the markets more efficient; an accompanying refresher on the two types of passive. (01:09:27) Reasons to doubt whether there really is a rise in both types of passive and the effect of the rise in mega firms. (01:19:16) The state of fundamental analysis in the current market and Michael’s response to a recent paper by Goldman Sachs attempting to isolate the component of passive. (01:23:30) Unpacking the cross-sectional impact on stock valuations from index investing and insights on the work of Valentine Haddad. (01:31:28) The implications of today’s subject matter for investors and what they should be doing with this information. (01:44:22) Reflection on why more experts don’t share Michael’s level of concern. (01:47:42) Randy’s takeaways from today’s conversation, why he still does not share Michael’s level of concern, and what he might be worried about.   Links From Today’s Episode: Meet with PWL Capital: https://calendly.com/d/3vm-t2j-h3p Rational Reminder on iTunes — https://itunes.apple.com/ca/podcast/the-rational-reminder-podcast/id1426530582. Rational Reminder Website — https://rationalreminder.ca/  Rational Reminder on Instagram — https://www.instagram.com/rationalreminder/ Rational Reminder on X — https://x.com/RationalRemindRational Reminder on TikTok — www.tiktok.com/@rationalreminder Rational Reminder on YouTube — https://www.youtube.com/channel/ Rational Reminder Email — [email protected] Felix — https://pwlcapital.com/our-team/ Benjamin on X — https://x.com/benjaminwfelix Benjamin on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/benjaminwfelix/ Cameron Passmore — https://pwlcapital.com/our-team/ Cameron on X — https://x.com/CameronPassmore Cameron on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/cameronpassmore/ Michael Green on Substack — https://substack.com/@michaelwgreen Michael Green on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-green-9a15142/ Michael Green on X — https://twitter.com/profplum99 ‘Yes, I give a fig… Thoughts on markets from Michael Green’ — https://www.yesigiveafig.com/ Randolph Cohen — https://www.hbs.edu/faculty/Pages/profile.aspx?facId=6597 Randolph Cohen on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/randy-cohen/ Dangerous Visions Podcast — https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/dangerous-vision-with-randy-cohen/id1477519445 Episode 302: Michael Green — https://rationalreminder.ca/podcast/302 Episode 322: Marco Sammon — https://rationalreminder.ca/podcast/322 Episode 310: Antoinette Schoar — https://rationalreminder.ca/podcast/310 Episode 212: Ralph Koijen — https://rationalreminder.ca/podcast/212 Episode 314: Valentine Haddad — https://rationalreminder.ca/podcast/314 Episode 224: Scott Cederburg — https://rationalreminder.ca/podcast/224 Episode 284: Scott Cederburg — https://rationalreminder.ca/podcast/284 The Grossman - Stiglitz Paradox (feat. The Plain Bagel) — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoXMZxe8crI   Books From Today’s Episode:   Irrational Exuberance — https://www.amazon.com/Irrational-Exuberance-3rd-Robert-Shiller/dp/0691166269    Papers From Today’s Episode:    ‘The Disappearing Index Effect’ — https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4294297 ‘Passive Investing and the Rise of Mega-Firms’ — https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4851266 ‘Retail Financial Innovation and Stock Market Dynamics: The Case of Target Date Funds’ — https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3723265 Valentine Haddad on Google Scholar — https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=PlPjP48AAAAJ ‘How Competitive is the Stock Market? Theory, Evidence from Portfolios, and Implications for the Rise of Passive Investing’ — https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/Papers.cfm?abstract_id=3821263 ‘Household Portfolios and Retirement Saving Over the Life Cycle’ — https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4068063 ‘The equity premium: A puzzle’ — https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0304393285900613 ‘In Search of the Origins of Financial Fluctuations: The Inelastic Markets Hypothesis’ — https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3686935

In today's episode, Cameron sits down with Mark McGrath to talk about his trip to Trondheim, Norway, the event he attended there, and his presentation in which he shared top lessons from prestigious Rational Reminder Podcast guests. Tuning in, you'll hear Cameron's top takeaways from conversations with Nobel laureate Eugene Fama and his collaborator Kenneth French, as well as Robert Merton, Antti Ilmanen, Professor Ludovic Phalippou, and more. We also delve into the changing industry trends regarding index investing and the many benefits that come with embracing it, including how it helps financial advisors better serve their clients. Stay tuned for our after-show section, where we discuss advice for new advisors, from developing a robust investment philosophy to building a network, along with insights to help consumers navigate the industry and much more. To learn all about Cameron’s trip to Norway, top guest takeaways, and industry trends around index investing, be sure to tune in!   Key Points From This Episode:   (0:01:13) An overview of today’s episode and a discussion on industry trends. (0:03:56) Our conversation with Håkon Kavli on managing Reitan Kapital. (0:04:38) What it was like for Cameron to meet Håkon Kavli and Magnus Reitan in Norway. (0:05:42) The excellent event in Trondheim, Norway, and their impressive lineup of speakers. (0:08:56) Unpacking industry trends in index investing and why more people are embracing it. (0:09:42) The light bulb moment for Mark and Cameron regarding index investing. (0:19:07) Highlights from our interviews with Eugene Fama, Ken French, and Robert Merton. (0:25:28) Dr. Annamaria Lusardi's insights and takeaways from our John Cochrane interview. (0:29:05) Top lessons from our conversation with Antti Ilmanen on low-expected returns. (0:30:58) Insights from talking with Professor Ludovic Phalippou about private equity. (0:32:22) Closing thoughts on Cameron’s presentation in Norway and index investing trends. (0:39:44) Our aftershow segment: advice for new advisors, ways the industry has changed, tips for consumers, technology insights, personal updates, and more.   Links From Today’s Episode: Meet with PWL Capital: https://calendly.com/d/3vm-t2j-h3p Rational Reminder on iTunes — https://itunes.apple.com/ca/podcast/the-rational-reminder-podcast/id1426530582. Rational Reminder Website — https://rationalreminder.ca/  Rational Reminder on Instagram — https://www.instagram.com/rationalreminder/ Rational Reminder on X — https://x.com/RationalRemindRational Reminder on TikTok — www.tiktok.com/@rationalreminder Rational Reminder on YouTube — https://www.youtube.com/channel/ Rational Reminder Email — [email protected] Felix — https://pwlcapital.com/our-team/ Benjamin on X — https://x.com/benjaminwfelix Benjamin on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/benjaminwfelix/ Cameron Passmore — https://pwlcapital.com/our-team/ Cameron on X — https://x.com/CameronPassmore Cameron on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/cameronpassmore/ Mark McGrath on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/markmcgrathcfp/ Mark McGrath on X — https://x.com/MarkMcGrathCFP Episode 321: Evidence in Practice with Håkon Kavli – https://rationalreminder.ca/podcast/321 Professor Marcos López de Prado — https://www.orie.cornell.edu/faculty-directory/marcos-lopez-de-prado Erik Hilde — https://www.linkedin.com/in/erik-hilde-9570a785/?originalSubdomain=no Dan Bortolotti — https://www.canadianmoneysaver.ca/authors/dan-bortolotti Canadian Couch Potato Blog — https://canadiancouchpotato.com/ Canadian Couch Potato Podcast — https://canadiancouchpotato.com/podcast/ Justin Bender — https://www.linkedin.com/in/justin-bender-cfa-cfp%C2%AE-tep-195b8b27/?originalSubdomain=ca Episode 200: Prof. Eugene Fama — https://rationalreminder.ca/podcast/200 Tune Out the Noise — https://www.dimensional.com/film Episode 100: Prof. Kenneth French — https://rationalreminder.ca/podcast/100 Episode 234: Prof. Robert C. Merton — https://rationalreminder.ca/podcast/234 Episode 232: Dr. Annamaria Lusardi — https://rationalreminder.ca/podcast/232 Episode 169: Prof. John Cochrane — https://rationalreminder.ca/podcast/169 Episode 202: Antti Ilmanen – https://rationalreminder.ca/podcast/202 Episode 210: Prof. Ludovic Phalippou — https://rationalreminder.ca/podcast/210 Fama and French Three Factor Model — https://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/famaandfrenchthreefactormodel.asp Books From Today’s Episode: Investing Amid Low Expected Returns — http://www.aqr.com/serenity The Empowered Investor — https://www.amazon.ca/Empowered-Investor-Canadian-Investment-Experience/dp/0991978307  

What happens when index investing dominates the market? In this episode, we’re joined by Davidson Heath, Assistant Professor of Finance at the University of Utah David Eccles School of Business, to explore this question and its surprising answers. Davidson’s research dives into the unintended impacts of passive investing, examining how it influences price stability, corporate governance, and even the way we define shareholder responsibility. He unpacks how index funds, while supporting price efficiency, may be weakening governance structures by reducing shareholder oversight, a shift that could have lasting effects on corporate accountability. We also discuss the promise and limitations of socially responsible investing (SRI), as Davidson introduces the term “impact washing” to describe how some SRI funds fail to achieve real change despite their green branding. In a forward-looking segment, Davidson shares insights on the collaboration between AI and human intelligence in finance, giving a reassuring perspective on the future of machine and human co-existence in complex decision-making. This episode is a must-listen for anyone curious about the hidden dynamics of passive investing and the evolving role of technology in finance!   Key Points From This Episode: (0:02:22) Davidson’s paper On Index Investing; Why active managers are important to indexing. (0:08:42) Conclusions on how index investing is affecting price efficiency. (0:11:10) The role of shareholders in corporate governance. (0:13:06) How the incentives of index funds to monitor portfolio firms differ from active funds. (0:15:10) Measuring how well index or active funds are monitoring the companies they own. (0:16:54) How the expense ratios of index funds affect their quality of monitoring. (0:18:08) What shareholders can do to monitor and make themselves heard. (0:20:31) How index fund ownership affects other firm-level governance issues. (0:21:30) Recap and takeaways on index funds and the market. (0:25:39) The impact of socially responsible investing (SRI) and how successful they are at selecting firms with better environmental, social, and governance (ESG) characteristics. (0:28:08) Unpacking “impact washing” in SRI funds and its consequences. (0:33:04) Insights on how ETFs are replicating index funds. (0:37:03) The implications of Davidson’s findings for index ETF investors and the markets. (0:38:57) Details on Davidson’s Cyborg Trading project and how it’s using AI to complement human intelligence. (0:42:42) How Davidson defines success: being a part of a worthwhile endeavour.   Links From Today’s Episode: Meet with PWL Capital: https://calendly.com/d/3vm-t2j-h3p Rational Reminder on iTunes — https://itunes.apple.com/ca/podcast/the-rational-reminder-podcast/id1426530582. Rational Reminder Website — https://rationalreminder.ca/  Rational Reminder on Instagram — https://www.instagram.com/rationalreminder/ Rational Reminder on X — https://x.com/RationalRemindRational Reminder on TikTok — www.tiktok.com/@rationalreminder Rational Reminder on YouTube — https://www.youtube.com/channel/ Rational Reminder Email — [email protected] Felix — https://pwlcapital.com/our-team/ Benjamin on X — https://x.com/benjaminwfelix Benjamin on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/benjaminwfelix/ Cameron Passmore — https://pwlcapital.com/our-team/ Cameron on X — https://x.com/CameronPassmore Cameron on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/cameronpassmore/ Mark McGrath on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/markmcgrathcfp/ Mark McGrath on X — https://x.com/MarkMcGrathCFP Davidson Heath — https://davidsontheath.github.io/ Davidson Heath on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidson-heath-5a28999a/ Davidson Heath on Google Scholar — https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=Fr-HyLEAAAAJ&hl=en Cyborg — https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097138/   Papers From Today’s Episode:  ‘On Index Investing’ — https://dx.doi.org/10.2139/ssrn.3055324 ‘Do Index Funds Monitor?’ — https://doi.org/10.1093/rfs/hhab023 ‘Does Socially Responsible Investing Change Firm Behavior?’ — https://doi.org/10.1093/rof/rfad002 ‘The Rise of Passive Investing and Active Mutual Fund Skill’ — https://dx.doi.org/10.2139/ssrn.4190266 ‘Counterproductive Sustainable Investing: The Impact Elasticity of Brown and Green Firms’ — https://dx.doi.org/10.2139/ssrn.4359282

Unlocking the power of education savings is often a complex task, but with the right strategies, a Registered Education Savings Plan (RESP) can be a game-changer for Canadian families planning their children's future. In this episode, Ben Felix, Dan Bortolotti, and Mark McGrath take a deep dive into the mechanics of the RESP, covering everything from optimal contributions and grant maximization to tax-efficient withdrawals and asset allocation. They discuss critical factors like the Canada Learning Bond (CLB) for low-income families and the intricacies of group RESPs, noting how pooled plans, though easy to join, can financially penalize those who don’t stay the course. With the RESP’s unique 35-year lifespan and its flexible range of education options, this in-depth conversation brings clarity to a valuable tool often overshadowed by its complexity. Tune in to discover practical strategies that could transform how you fund education, optimize your investments, and make the most of Canada’s RESP benefits.   Key Points From This Episode:   (0:02:43) Purpose and structure of the RESP as a tool to fund post-secondary education. (0:06:25) Insight and tips for how contribution limits and government matching grants work. (0:07:13) How the CLB supports low-income families with up to $2,000 without contributions. (0:10:13) Family RESPs, which allow multiple beneficiaries to share contributions and earnings. (0:11:54) Distinguishing between Education Assistance Payments (EAP), Post-Secondary Education Payments (PSE), and their tax implications for beneficiaries. (0:14:27) Front-loading versus annual contributions: optimal contribution strategies to maximize grants and investment growth. (0:23:22) Tips for tax-efficient RESP withdrawals, especially if beneficiaries have other income. (0:35:28) Education outside of Canada, over-contribution penalties, and other considerations. (0:37:28) RESPs and estate planning, including naming a successor subscriber in your will. (0:42:54) Asset allocation advice: prioritize growth early and stabilize as educational costs near. (0:48:00) Constructive criticism of RESP policies to increase access for low-income families. (1:02:02) Summing up the benefits and challenges of RESPs and encouraging families to use them wisely as part of their education savings plan. (1:07:39) The aftershow: reviews, praise for Dan, and a community debate on expected returns.   Links From Today’s Episode: Meet with PWL Capital: https://calendly.com/d/3vm-t2j-h3p Rational Reminder on iTunes — https://itunes.apple.com/ca/podcast/the-rational-reminder-podcast/id1426530582. Rational Reminder Website — https://rationalreminder.ca/  Rational Reminder on Instagram — https://www.instagram.com/rationalreminder/ Rational Reminder on X — https://x.com/RationalRemindRational Reminder on TikTok — www.tiktok.com/@rationalreminder Rational Reminder on YouTube — https://www.youtube.com/channel/ Rational Reminder Email — [email protected] Felix — https://pwlcapital.com/our-team/ Benjamin on X — https://x.com/benjaminwfelix Benjamin on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/benjaminwfelix/ Mark McGrath on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/markmcgrathcfp/ Mark McGrath on X — https://x.com/MarkMcGrathCFP Dan Bortolotti — https://benderbenderbortolotti.com/about/our-team/ Dan Bortolotti on LinkedIn — https://www.linkedin.com/in/dan-bortolotti-8a482310/ Registered Education Savings Plan (RESP) — https://www.canada.ca/en/services/benefits/education/education-savings/plan.html Canada Learning Bond — https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/tax/individuals/topics/registered-education-savings-plans-resps/canada-education-savings-programs-cesp/canada-learning-bond.html Aaron Hector: ‘Optimal RESP funding strategies if you have $50,000 to invest’ — https://x.com/AaronHectorCFP/status/1787188396248731967  Aaron Hector: ‘How to draw down a $200k RESP over a 4 year university program’ — https://x.com/AaronHectorCFP/status/1788196751821738360 Employment and Social Development Canada (ESDC) — https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development.html 'How to Invest Your RESP’ — https://benderbenderbortolotti.com/how-to-invest-your-resp/ ‘The Regulation of Group Plan RESPs and the Experiences of Low-Income Subscribers’ — https://seedwinnipeg.ca/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/The_Regulation_of_Group_Plan_RESPs_and_the_Experiences_of_Low-income_Subscribers.pdf Episode 326: Dr. Sunil Wahal: Exploring the Nuances of Financial Science — https://rationalreminder.ca/podcast/326   Papers From Today’s Episode:    ‘The Anatomy of Value and Growth Stock Returns’ — https://dx.doi.org/10.2139/ssrn.806664 ‘Migration’ — https://dx.doi.org/10.2139/ssrn.926556