The Human Risk Podcast

What if the best way to improve cybersecurity — or any other form of human risk — wasn't another policy, training course, or piece of technology, but a board game?  That's the kind of question my guest, Jill Wick, loves asking.

Episode Summary 
Jill is a cybersecurity awareness consultant, business psychologist, podcaster, and author. Her work sits at the intersection of psychology, marketing, behavioural science, and cybersecurity, and she is passionate about helping organisations understand that security is fundamentally a human challenge, not simply a technical one. 

Drawing on her experience in fraud prevention and her academic background in business psychology, Jill explains why traditional approaches to awareness often fail, why experimentation matters, and how a simple Snakes and Ladders-inspired game can create meaningful conversations about risk and decision-making.

The discussion ranges far beyond cybersecurity. We explore creativity, curiosity, communication, organisational culture, social media, learning, and the challenge of measuring success when the outcome you're seeking is something that doesn't happen.

Key Topics
In this episode, we discuss:
Why cybersecurity is ultimately a human problem rather than a technology problem
The psychology behind phishing, scams, and social engineering
Why more policies and more training often fail to change behaviour
How unclear policies can create confusion instead of compliance
The role of curiosity, creativity, and experimentation in risk management
How games can create psychologically safe environments for learning
The importance of conversation and peer learning in awareness programmes
What compliance, safety, conduct, and operational risk professionals can learn from cybersecurity awareness
Why awareness professionals should think more like marketers
The value of experimentation, iteration, and A/B testing
How social media can help build communities around important ideas
Why measuring engagement may be just as important as measuring failures
Guest Biography
Jill Wick is a cybersecurity awareness consultant, business psychologist, author, and podcast host who specialises in the human side of cybersecurity. Drawing on a background in fraud prevention and behavioural science, she helps organisations build stronger security cultures through creative, engaging approaches that go beyond traditional training and compliance. Known for her innovative use of games, psychology, and marketing techniques, Jill is a passionate advocate for making cybersecurity awareness more human, effective, and enjoyable

Links
Jill's LinkedIn profile - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jill-wick/
Jill's website - https://www.jillwick.com/
Cyber & Psych, Jill's podcast - https://open.spotify.com/show/5uteiqHvCTGCVtCsKCzGJ6?si=322ef51fd6a3423c&nd=1&dlsi=c6d8309550784df9
Security-Awareness-Tools, Jill's book - https://www.isbn.de/buch/9783658511111/security-awareness-tools

AI-Generated Timestamped Outline
00:00 – Introduction
02:15 – Jill's background: From fraud prevention and business psychology to cybersecurity awareness.
05:30 – Understanding why people fall for scams, phishing attacks, and social engineering.
06:00 – Why cybersecurity is fundamentally a human problem, not just a technical one.
08:00 – The limitations of rules, policies, and traditional awareness training.
12:00 – The origin of Jill's cybersecurity board game and why simplicity matters.
14:00 – How games create psychologically safe conversations and improve learning.
19:30 – The game as a conversation tool: building culture, peer learning, and engagement.
22:00 – Creativity, curiosity, and the courage to experiment with new approaches.
26:00 – What cybersecurity awareness can learn from marketing, advertising, and A/B testing.
35:30 – Why awareness and technology must work together rather than compete.
41:30 – New projects: workshops, events, games, and Jill's forthcoming book Security Awareness Tools.
44:00 – Lessons for compliance and risk professionals: attention is a limited resource.
51:00 – Measuring success: engagement, participation, reporting, and positive signals.

What can businesses learn from cults?
It might sound like an uncomfortable comparison: one involves strategy meetings, values statements and quarterly targets; the other manipulation, charismatic leaders and extreme behaviour. But perhaps the distinction isn't as clear as we'd like to think. Both create identities and shared beliefs. Both shape how people think and behave. And both can evolve gradually in ways that are hard to recognise from the inside.

Unhealthy cultures rarely appear overnight. Small compromises become normal, difficult questions become harder to ask, and behaviours that once felt uncomfortable slowly become accepted.

Episode Overview
On this episode, I'm joined by Tobias Sturesson, culture advisor and author of You Can Culture, whose understanding of organisational culture comes not from business school, but from a deeply personal experience growing up inside a religious community that gradually evolved into a cult.

Drawing on his own story — and his work helping organisations create healthier cultures — Tobias explains why good people can become part of unhealthy systems, why speaking up is often far harder than leaders realise, and why culture is shaped far less by mission statements than by the everyday behaviours people learn to accept.

We also explore:
How communities and organisations can slowly drift into unhealthy patterns
Why leaving damaging environments is often much harder than outsiders imagine
The role of sunk costs, identity and belonging in keeping people trapped
Why organisations often mistake symptoms for root causes
The difference between “tone from the top” and “example from the top”
Why humility may be one of the most underrated leadership traits
The dangers of leaders creating the appearance of listening without genuinely hearing people
Why culture initiatives often fail to create lasting behavioural change
How everyday leadership habits shape organisational culture
Why discomfort is often necessary for growth
Guest Profile - Tobias Sturesson
Tobias is a culture advisor, speaker and author focused on helping organisations build healthier cultures and develop more responsible leadership practices. His work combines personal experience with research and practical interventions designed to help organisations identify and address the root causes that undermine cultural health. He is the author of You Can Culture: Transformative Leadership Habits for a Thriving Workplace, Positive Impact and Lasting Success.

Links
Tobias on LinkedIn – https://www.linkedin.com/in/tobiassturesson/
Heart Management - https://www.heartmanagement.org/
Tobias' Book: You Can Culture – https://youcanculture.com/

AI-Generated Timestamped Summary
00:00 — Introduction: What can cults teach us about culture?
03:00 — Tobias's story of growing up inside a community that became a cult
08:30 — How unhealthy environments evolve gradually
11:00 — Why leaving can be harder than joining
13:00 — The importance of people who help without judging
16:00 — Turning personal experience into professional purpose
19:00 — Why organisations often misunderstand their own problems
23:00 — Humility as a leadership strength
26:00 — The tension between expertise and curiosity
29:00 — Why business systems often reward the wrong behaviours
33:00 — The importance of listening and asking better questions
38:00 — Why reflection matters in fast-moving environments
42:00 — Culture as everyday conversations and habits
45:00 — Leadership signals and behavioural norms
49:00 — Building healthier cultures through leadership habits
53:00 — Why changing culture is difficult but necessary
56:00 — Creating a movement for healthier leadership

What makes great service? It’s one of those things we instantly recognise when we experience it, but struggle to define. And while organisations spend huge amounts of time trying to design seamless customer experiences, the reality is that service doesn’t happen in strategy documents or training manuals. It happens in real time, between real people, in messy and unpredictable situations where eventually the playbook runs out.

Episode Overview
In this episode, Christian is joined by Will Tarrant, CEO of Freeman Group, who focus on helping organisations close the gap between what they promise customers and what actually gets delivered in reality.

Drawing on decades of experience across hospitality, aviation, healthcare and destinations, Will explains why compliance-based training can sometimes increase hidden risk, why empowerment without judgment can quickly become chaos, and why the real differentiator in service is rarely the process itself — it’s the human response when something unexpected happens.

Along the way, the conversation explores:
Why “making people feel a certain way” is the real job in hospitality
The hidden risks created by over-reliance on scripts and SOPs
Why organisations often confuse solving problems with compensating customers
The psychology of customer perception and expectation
How hotels, airports and even destinations manage emotional experiences
Why breakfast might be the best indicator of a hotel’s quality
The tension between automation and human interaction
Why good service recovery is about judgment, not generosity
As Will puts it: “Compliance-based training reduces visible risk, but it increases hidden risk.”

Although framed around hospitality and customer service, this episode is really about something much broader: how humans make decisions when the script no longer applies.

Guest Profile - Will Tarrant
Will Tarrant is the CEO of Freeman Group, a consultancy that helps organisations design and deliver service cultures that align operational reality with brand promise. The company works globally across hospitality, aviation, healthcare, retail and tourism destinations.

LinksWill on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/willtarrant/
Freeman Group website - https://freemangroupsolutions.com/

AI-Generated Timestamped Summary
00:00 — Introduction: Why service failures create risk
02:30 — Closing the gap between promise and reality
07:00 — Hospitality is about making people feel something
11:30 — The hidden risk of compliance-based training
13:00 — What happens when the playbook runs out
15:00 — Scripts, authenticity and service style
16:00 — Measuring service quality
19:00 — Perception is reality
20:00 — Why empowerment needs structure
22:00 — Seeing service everywhere
24:00 — The timeless mechanics of good service
26:00 — Automation versus human interaction
29:00 — “The customer is always your customer”
30:00 — Solving problems versus compensating customers
33:00 — Inheriting other people’s problems
36:00 — Hiring for judgment, not just experience
39:00 — The changing status of hospitality careers
43:00 — Humans as the source of unpredictability
47:00 — Why hotel breakfast matters
50:00 — Choice overload and decision fatigue
53:00 — Applying service thinking beyond hospitality
55:00 — The gap between marketing and operational reality

What if prediction isn’t about knowing the future, but controlling it?  On this episode, I'm joined by a leading thinker on digital ethics, privacy and technology to explore the idea of prophecy.

Episode Summary
My guest is Dr Carissa Véliz and in our discussion, we talk about humanity’s long-standing obsession with predicting what comes next, and why today’s algorithms may be the most powerful (and dangerous) prophets we’ve ever created. 

From ancient oracles and court astrologers to modern AI systems and tech executives, we explore how prediction has always been less about knowledge and more about power. What becomes clear is that while the tools have changed, the underlying dynamics haven’t. We still crave certainty, we still look for authority, and we’re still willing to trust those who claim to see the future. The difference now is scale: predictive technologies don’t just forecast behaviour; they shape it. And the more accurate they appear, the less likely we are to question them. 

We then explore responsibility. If prediction influences reality, then our willingness to accept it matters. This episode is a reminder that the future isn’t something that simply happens to us, but something we’re actively participating in, whether we realise it or not.

Guest Bio
Dr Carissa Véliz is Associate Professor of Philosophy at the Institute for Ethics in AI and a Fellow at Hertford College at the University of Oxford. She is a leading thinker on digital ethics, privacy, and technology. She is the author of several books including her latest release 'Prophecy: Prediction, Power and the Fight for the Future, from Ancient Oracles to AI' and 'Privacy Is Power: Why and How You Should Take Back Control of Your Data '

Her work explores how data, AI, and predictive systems reshape society—often in ways that are invisible but deeply consequential. Drawing on philosophy, history, and real-world systems, she examines how power operates through technology and what individuals and institutions can do to resist it.

AI-Generated TImestamped Summary
[00:00:00] Opening: prediction as something that shapes—not reveals—the future
[00:01:00] Why prophecy is a lens for understanding modern AI
[00:04:00] Kings, prophets, and the risks of getting predictions wrong
[00:06:00] Survival strategies of ancient astrologers
[00:08:00] Why humans crave certainty—and who exploits it
[00:10:00] The danger of mistaking wealth for wisdom
[00:12:00] Prediction as a tool of power throughout history
[00:14:00] Surveillance as the foundation of modern prediction
[00:16:00] How predictions shape behaviour (self-fulfilling dynamics)
[00:17:00] Publishing as a case study in manufactured success
[00:21:00] The strange economics of pre-orders and attention
[00:23:00] Insurance: from solidarity to individualised risk
[00:26:00] The hidden systemic risks of personalised prediction
[00:30:00] Why citizens need to reclaim agency
[00:31:00] Laziness vs values: why we default to algorithms
[00:33:00] Tech creating problems it then claims to solve
[00:34:00] The role of humour as truth-telling
[00:35:00] Why algorithms would have killed Seinfeld
[00:40:00] Practical alternatives: preparation over prediction
[00:42:00] The importance of serendipity
[00:43:00] Rediscovering the analogue world
[00:46:00] Algorithms shaping culture and environments
[00:48:00] Optimism vs doom in thinking about technology
[00:50:00] Writing as exploration, not prediction
Links
Carissa's website - https://www.carissaveliz.com/

Her new book, Prophecy - https://www.carissaveliz.com/prophecy

Her previous book Privacy Is Power - https://www.carissaveliz.com/books

Carissa's faculty page - https://www.oxford-aiethics.ox.ac.uk/dr-carissa-veliz

Carissa on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/carissa-v%C3%A9liz-a5781555/

We like to think we choose what matters. But what if the goals we’re chasing… aren’t actually ours?

Episode Summary
My guest on this episode is Dr. C. Thi Nguyen, philosopher and author of The Score: How to Stop Playing Somebody Else’s Game, a book about how metrics, scoring systems, and “games” shape our behaviour—often without us realising it. Thi explains how his work on games led him to a deeper question: why do scoring systems make games feel meaningful, but make real life feel distorted? The answer lies in how metrics redefine success—quietly shifting us from what we care about to what we can measure.

In a wide-ranging discussion, we explore the idea of “value capture”, why institutions rely on simplified proxies, and how the very features that make metrics useful also make them dangerous. We also discuss expertise, transparency, gamification, and why removing metrics altogether doesn’t solve the problem. This is a conversation about control: who sets the rules, who keeps score, and what happens when we stop questioning the game we’re playing. 

Guest Bio
Dr. C. Thi Nguyen is a philosopher whose work explores how games, metrics, and social systems shape human behaviour and values. A professor of philosophy at the University of Utah, his research sits at the intersection of ethics, decision-making, and the philosophy of agency, with a particular focus on how the structures around us influence what we care about and how we act.

Alongside his academic work, Thi is also a keen gamer, rock climber, and cook; interests that inform his thinking about play, challenge, and the richness of human experience beyond what can be easily measured.

AI-Generated Timestamped Summary
00:00 – Introduction: games, metrics, and meaning
03:00 – How Thi came to study games and philosophy
07:00 – What games are (and why they matter)
10:00 – Achievement vs striving play
13:00 – Cheating and misunderstanding the point of games
16:00 – Games, struggle, and meaningful activity
18:00 – Cooking, recipes, and rules
22:00 – Metrics as simplified rule systems
25:00 – Value capture and how metrics reshape goals
29:00 – Why institutions rely on measurement
32:00 – Quantification and loss of context
36:00 – Rules, algorithms, and expertise
40:00 – Standardisation and the cost of consistency
43:00 – Transparency, trust, and unintended consequences
47:00 – Metrics and the loss of expert judgment
50:00 – Ungrading and the limits of removing metrics
54:00 – Designing better scoring systems
58:00 – Gamification and why it misses the point
01:02:00 – Choosing your own game
01:06:00 – Final reflections and closing

Relevant Links

Thi’s personal website – https://objectionable.net/
His faculty page - https://profiles.faculty.utah.edu/u6021584
The Score: How to Stop Playing Someone Else’s Game - https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/457380/the-score-by-nguyen-c-thi/9780241653975
Thi on Bluesky – https://bsky.app/profile/add-hawk.bsky.social