Uncensored Renegades

Jon and Kory discuss the unexpected viral success of 3, 5, 7, 9, and the psychology that made the idea resonate.
They unpack where the framework came from, why repetition helps ideas stick, and how marketers can use memorable language without crossing the line from persuasion into indoctrination.
Along the way, they explore why great brands have great taglines, what campaigns can learn from 3, 5, 7, 9, and how a simple idea becomes something people want to repeat.
Useful links:
Kellyn Smith Kenny’s 3-5-7-9 framework
Virtuosi League
Timestamps

00:00 - Start
00:57 - The viral clip
01:49 - How does the viral clip benchmark against other clips
03:48 - The comments on the viral video
04:54 - Where does 3, 5, 7, 9 come from?
06:09 - Why 3, 5, 7, 9 works
10:52 - Have any marketing campaigns adopted 3, 5, 7, 9?
16:49 - Persuasion vs indoctrination
20:15 - Why good brands have great taglines
21:44 - 3, 5, 7, 9 - repeated

Jon and Kory discuss the traits that separate renegade leaders from the rest.
From courage and risk tolerance to persistence and a bias for action, they explore what it takes to challenge conventional thinking inside large organisations, especially when bureaucracy, short-term pressure and fear of failure make bold decisions difficult.
Timestamps

00:00 - Start
01:16 - The core characteristics of a Renegade leader
02:39 - 3 surprising facts about Renegade leaders
03:49 - Why are companies so risk averse
08:00 - Challenging the status quo
13:47 - Why great leaders have courage
15:47 - Having a high risk tolerance
19:36 - Why e.l.f. want their competitors to get bigger
21:03 - Why great leaders provide air cover
21:49 - Renegade leaders are persistent
22:56 - Beating bureaucracy
24:18 - Do one thing, do it well
25:46 - Bias for action
26:56 - Jon does strategic distillation

Jon and Kory discuss why, in an increasingly online world, some of the most important work still happens when people are together in a room.
From recording the podcast face-to-face to building high-performing teams, they explore what is lost when every interaction becomes a scheduled video call. Not productivity or convenience, but the trust, informal learning and unexpected opportunities that are much harder to create remotely.
They examine the changing attitude towards office life, including a Gen Z counter-swing towards real-world connection, and why some investors remain wary of backing fully remote teams. Kory also shares why e.l.f. is continuing to invest in in-person experiences, and how events can create connections that genuinely change someone’s career or life.

Timestamps
00:00 - Start
00:25 - Why we do the podcast in person
01:56 - How many companies are back in offices
04:46 - The Gen Z counterswing
07:33 - Why investors only invest in in-person teams
08:36 - The power of IRL within teams
12:19 - The unexpected opportunities that happen IRL
13:31 - Why e.l.f. are investing in in-person events
17:04 - How in-person events can change lives
18:27 - How do we use IRL in an ever online world
20:03 - A question from Jon and Kory

Jon and Kory discuss why the metrics designed to improve performance can sometimes lead businesses in exactly the wrong direction.
Kory explains why e.l.f. does not tie compensation directly to KPIs, and why misaligned targets can discourage creativity, distort decision-making and even put good people at risk.
They also tackle a growing leadership problem: treating KPIs as instructions rather than information. How high should targets be? When do they create useful focus, and when do they become a ceiling? And what should leaders use instead when the work requires judgement, experimentation and long-term thinking?
Timestamps
00:00 - Start
01:01 - Do KPIs kill creativity?
02:56 - Goodhart’s law
03:31 - Why e.l.f. do not have compensation based KPIs
06:50 - Why misaligned KPIs can get you fired
09:37 - Can KPIs hold you back?
13:25 - People are using KPIs like AI
14:19 - How high should you set KPIs
16:19 - The better way to approach KPIs
19:09 - Are KPIs out?

Jon and Kory discuss why humour is a serious advantage for brands, leaders and anyone trying to earn attention. They explore the science behind why humour makes ideas more memorable, why funny advertising has become less common, and the important difference between trying to be amusing and using humour to reveal a truth.
The conversation looks at what it takes to create the conditions for humour to thrive: giving people permission to take creative risks, planning for it rather than treating it as an afterthought, and understanding why brands such as Liquid Death make it look effortless.

A useful case for taking the work seriously, without always taking yourself quite so seriously.
Timestamps

00:00 - Start
01:44 - The serious case for humour
03:46 - The science behind humour
04:48 - Why humour is good for brands
06:28 - Why we are seeing less funny ads
09:23 - Humour touches on truth
11:17 - How to create the conditions for humour to thrive
14:25 - Why the best brands plan humour
17:38 - Why Liquid Death are so funny
19:37 - Can you use humour in a business context?