HODINKEE Podcasts

This week on The Business of Watches, we're in La Chaux-de-Fonds to talk to the man heading Greubel Forsey, one of the most revered and respected brands in independent watchmaking. The company had been on a recent roll, with Meta CEO and chairman Mark Zuckerberg seen wearing its pricey timepieces and a 'Mechanical Exception' win for its Nano Foudroyante at the Grand Prix d'Horlogerie Genève (a watch also in Zuckerberg's collection). Then news broke that Stephen Forsey, one of the brand's founders, was stepping down from the board, and, in a widely-seen social media post, Forsey said he had been "disengaged" from his duties by the board and chose to resign. 

Nydegger tells us some of the backstory to the situation and how the company plans to move forward under stable ownership. Greubel Forsey isn't looking for investors, and should Forsey want to sell his minority stake, Robert Greubel, his fellow co-founder and majority owner, has a right of first refusal on the shares. So where is Greubel Forsey headed? Nydegger says the only thing shrinking will be the size of its timepieces as it continues a push to make its watches more wearable and possibly prices as they are trying to produce an entry-level watch in the lineup priced at around CHF 120,000 or less. They haven't quite got there just yet. 

But first, we're joined by Arthur Touchot, the co-founder of Marteau & Co., to talk about his upstart auction house's plans to cut independent watchmakers in on the sale proceeds. For its sophomore edition, called 'The Echo', Marteau is auctioning off watches from independents, including Simon Brette, a Berneron Mirage Tiger Eye, vintage Daniel Roth, and an Audemars Piguet Starwheel. So will mighty AP be in line for 3% of the hammer price? Tune in to find out.

Show Notes

1:30 Arthur Touchot 

2:40 Marteau & Co. 

4:13 New Swiss Auctioneer Aims To Bring 'Artist's Resale Right' Concept To Independent Watchmaker Sales 

6:21  The Echo catalogue (Marteau & Co.) 

11:40 M.A.D. Gallery Geneva 

12:52 AHCI 

14:11 Audemars Piguet Starwheel (Hodinkee) 

16:08 Greubel Forsey (The Art of Invention) 

19:14 Greubel Forsey Gets New CEO - Michel Nydegger (SJX) 

20:20 Introducing The Greubel Forsey Double Tourbillon Technique Black, The First Titanium Watch From Greubel Forsey 

20:40 Guy Takes $600,000 Greubel Forsey Double Tourbillon 30 Degrees Technique Swimming, Resists Heart Attack (Hodinkee) 

24:02 Quadruple Tourbillon The History 

24:50 Interview: Giulio Papi, Director Audemars Piguet Renaud & Papi (Hodinkee) 

29:59 Greubel Forsey Watches: A Division of Labor (NYT paywall) 

32:01 Micro-machinist in watchmaking (FHH) 

38:20 These Watches Used To Be A Secret Of The Ultra Rich. Not Anymore. (Bloomberg paywall) 

46:30 Stephen Forsey, Co-Founder Of Greubel Forsey, Steps Down From Company Board (Hodinkee) 

49:02 Michel Nydegger acceptance speech GPHG 2025 Mechanical Exception prize (GPHG Youtube) 

54:40 Mark Zuckerberg Wears $900,000 Watch To Announce End Of Meta Fact Checks (Bloomberg paywall) 

55:30 Greubel Forsey Family

This week on The Business of Watches, we talk to the man who runs the brand that makes the mighty El Primero movement. Benoit de Clerck has been in the CEO chair at Zenith Watches for a couple of years now, and that's coincided with a challenging time for the sector and one of the industry's most storied brands, with more than 160 years of history and still located in its original manufacturing location in Le Locle, Switzerland. 

Under de Clerck's leadership, Zenith is responding to the challenges with a multi-pronged approach. It's throttling production to keep sell-in and sell-out balanced, he says. But it's also stepping up its movement, making production expertise and supplying more calibers to other brands, also under the LVMH watch group umbrella. As for those reports and rumors that Zenith is up for sale? We ask de Clerck straight up if the El Primero maker is on the selling block. Have a listen to hear his forceful and fulsome response. 

But first, former Hodinkee editor Logan Baker drops in to give his take on Zenith, as well as reports that the valuation of Breitling has been reduced by its private equity ownership. Logan also has a few of his unique vintage Zenith watches on hand for us to check out. 

Show Notes 

1:30 Logan Baker (Hodinkee) 

1:40 A Watch Enthusiast's Guide to Geneva (Logan Baker, Phillips) 

2:34 Zenith Manufacture Le Locle 

5:13 Zenith Chronometer Calatrava Circa 1964 

6:50 Square case Zenith Defy with integrated bracelet 

7:34 Zenith Elite Movement 

9:45 Morgan Stanley Swiss Watcher Report 

10:50 Private equity owners slash valuation of Swiss watchmaker Breitling (FT paywall) 

13:15 Zenith Celebrates Its 160th Anniversary With CEO Benoit de Clerck (YouTube, Watch Adviser) 

15:25 Hands-On: Zenith's Resurrected Caliber 135-Powered 'G.F.J.' (Hodinkee) 

15:49 Hands-On: The Zenith Chronomaster Original Triple Calendar Lapis Lazuli (Hodinkee) 

17:01 GPHG Chronometry Prize 2025 

18:40 I Spend All Day Researching Vintage Zenith Watches – Here's Why This El Primero Is So Important To Me 

20:03 Introducing: Zenith Defy Chronograph USM (Hands-On And Live Pics) 

26:03 LVMH response to report Zenith brand is up for sale (Hodinkee story on Baume & Mercier sale) 27:30 Tiffany's New Watch Courts The Male Buyer (New York Times) 

32:07 Hublot Big Bang With Zenith Movement (Monochrome) 

37:01 Zenith: The Heart of Watchmaking (YouTube) 

39:05 Zenith A Visit To The Manufacture 

41:02 Zenith GFJ 

42:32 CHF x USD (Yahoo)

This week on The Business of Watches, we go behind the scenes with the man who compiles and crunches the numbers for the Morgan Stanley Swiss Watcher report, the most influential and widely read annual financial league table on the industry. Oliver Müller has been around the sector for some three decades, beginning his career at Omega before executive roles at a series of brands, including Laurent Ferrier, where he served as Chief Executive Officer. He's now a consultant to the industry and has helped shape brand strategy and positioning for the likes of Akrivia and Rexhep Rexhepi, among others. 

Müller's most high-profile gig these days is compiling the estimates of Swiss brand revenue and volumes for the Morgan Stanley report. It's the top league table for the sector, and he tells us how he calculates and decides on the estimates that get published. Not everyone is a fan. Swatch Group has long criticized the report, now in its 9th edition, and Müller tells us why he believes Swatch and its leadership don't always appreciate the numbers.

But first, Hodinkee founder Ben Clymer drops in for his Business of Watches debut. Ben tells us about his recent trip to Geneva and what he's hearing from some of the big brand executives. He also gives us his take on some of the data deep inside the Morgan Stanley report. 

Show Notes 

1:30 Ben Clymer (Hodinkee)  
2:11 Watches of Switzerland Group 
4:10 Gold price 4:42 USDxCHF 
6:40 Audemars Piguet CEO Ilaria Resta Drives Double-Digit Sales Increase For Brand's 150th Anniversary Year 
10:20 Cartier Santos de Cartier in Titanium (And Steel) — The Watches You Want From Cartier, Whether You Know It Or Not (Hodinkee) 12:55 Cartier's NSO – Or "New Special Order" –  Watch Program Is Over, At Least As We Know It (Hodinkee) 
15:00 LuxeConsult (Oliver Müller) 
15:15 Morgan Stanley 
18:15 Richard Mille 
18:34 Bucherer 
24:13 When Banks Try To Unlock The Watchmaking Secret (Le Temps) (In French) 
32:47 F.P. Journe

 32:50 H. Moser & Cie. 
37:30 MB&F 
39:20 Raymond Weil 
39:25 Frederique Constant 
39:30 Christopher Ward 
43:05 Jacob & Co. 
44:00 How The Five Time Zone Shaped Modern Watch Culture (Hodinkee Malaika Crawford) 
49:20 Tudor sales slump by 23% but Rolex turnover ticks up 5% to CHF 10.6 billion (Watchpro) 
53:20 IWC 
54:15  Jaeger-LeCoultre 59:20 Richemont Sells Baume & Mercier 
1:01:30 Swatch Group Brands 
1:06:20 Rolex careers and work locations including Biel / Bienne

What's in a name? More specifically, what is a name worth? Gerald Genta, likely the most famous watch designer in history and responsible for conjuring iconic models from the Audemars Piguet Royal Oak, the Patek Philippe Nautilus, the IWC Ingenieur, and the Universal Geneve Polerouter, among others, sold his eponymous watch brand and name to what is now Bulgari and LVMH in the early 2000s. Then he started another brand - using his middle name instead of his family name - and that became Gerald Charles. It was sold to the Ziviani family in Italy in 2003, as Genta remained employed at the company as chief designer until his death in 2011. 
The brand continued producing mostly one-off, bespoke pieces on a small scale for wealthy clients until 2019, when Federico Ziviani, then in his early 20s, took over as Chief Executive Officer and pushed the Gerald Charles brand to a new phase. That would see it draw on designs from Genta's era with the company, most specifically the 'Maestro' case, and sell watches to consumers, first online and then through retailers. 
Production has climbed from about 200 watches a year to more than 1,500, and prices have climbed as well, to an average of about CHF 27,000, Ziviani tells us in an interview recorded at the company's operations in Geneva, where it has an atelier and a small museum that traces the history of the brand and its production. Ziviani is enthusiastic and passionate about the family-owned company that is now sold in about 100 retail stores globally. And he makes the case for why he thinks Gerald Charles watches deserve their hefty price tag. 
But first, we jump into some of the recent business headlines in the watch world. Rolex has consolidated its position as the dominant Swiss brand for watches priced above CHF 3,000 francs with more than 60% market share by sales, according to Swiss bank Vontobel. The bank also ranks the top brands by estimated sales, and we consider the list. And the Contrôle Officiel Suisse des Chronomètres, or COSC, is launching a new higher-tier standard to test the accuracy and precision of Swiss watches. We discuss what that might mean for the Swiss industry, brands, and customers. 
Show Notes 
1:40 Rolex Trimmed Production In 2025 According To Swiss Bank Vontobel 
7:06 Gold price (Yahoo) 
7:30 Switzerland's COSC Unveils 'Excellence Chronometer' Level Of Certification 
14:20 Gerald Charles 
15:00 Gerald Genta (Wikipedia)  
15:49 Gerald Genta Gefica Safari (Europa Star) 
17:11 Audemars Piguet Italia (Bloomberg) 
18:20 Giampaolo Ziviani and Gerald Genta (Instagram) 
26:20 Gerald Charles website 
27:30 Ticino, Switzerland (Wikipedia) 
38:30 Gerald Charles Ambassadors 
42:15 Swiss Made or Swiss Charade? (ScrewDownCrown) 
45:00 Gerald Genta (LVMH) 
46:30 Gerald Charles History
48:00 USD x Swiss Franc (Yahoo)

This week on The Business of Watches, we head to La Chaux-de-Fonds and sit down with a CEO that running a very different business than most watch brands. Mitchell Wein is the scion of a family that's been in the watch business for more than a century, and the Marathon brand launched back in 1939, supplying timing instruments for the Allied Forces in World War II. 
Selling watches, stopwatches, and clocks to governments and military organizations is still the bulk of Marathon's business these days. Wein says 80% of the watches they sell, by volume, are for these kinds of clients. For a company based in Toronto that makes its watches in Switzerland, that comes with a special list of challenges, particularly in the current geopolitical landscape, where conflicts are heightening, and more trade barriers are being erected. Marathon notably supplied the U.S. military with field watches during the Gulf War way back in the early 1990s, and even today, Wein says the company always has to be ready for a potential war and a potential big order from a military looking to outfit its soldiers with a watch able to withstand the rigors of modern armed conflict. 
But first, we're joined by another Canadian from the wide world of watches. Hodinkee Editor-in-Chief, James Stacey, drops in to talk about a recent trip to Japan and the launch of the Louis Vuitton X De Bethune LVDB-03 Louis Varius Project, a very exclusive travel watch that, if you're in the right price bracket, comes with a Sympathique clock that serves as a docking station to wind and set the watch. 
Show Notes: 
2:04 Introducing The Louis Vuitton X De Bethune LVDB-03 Louis Varius Project (Hodinkee) 
5:16 Denis Flageollet 
6:40 F.P. Journe Reveals Why He Paid More Than $6 Million For A Breguet Clock He Designed 
9:30 Hands-On: The DB25 Starry Varius (Hodinkee) 
11:01 Exclusive: Hermes heir takes aim at LVMH's Arnault in missing shares civil lawsuit, court document shows (Reuters) 
13:02 Travels With A Marathon Watch In Search Of Adventure (Cole Pennington, Hodinkee) 
13:40 The Marathon Navigator – Now With A Steel Case! (Hodinkee) 
14:30 Marathon X Jeep 
18:00 Marathon Our Story (Marathon) 
26:00 Comparison of Marathon Navigator Steel vs. Plastic (You're Terrific YouTube) 
30:02 Doxa 
34:15 Marathon Limited Edition ADANAC Stainless Steel Navigator Pilot's Automatic 
40:05 Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) Following a Nuclear Detonation (U.S. Dept. Health and Human Services) 
42:16 IntroducingThe Marathon Navigator 'Blue Yonder' Limited Edition (Hodinkee) 
48:11 NATO Stock Numbers (Wikipedia) 
1:02:30 Robertson Screw (Wikipedia) 
1:10:12 Marathon Clocks (Amazon)