The Official BNI Podcast

Synopsis

Credibility is a key element of BNI’s VCP (Visibility, Credibility, Profitability) process. If you have no credibility, people will not work with with you, refer you, or follow your lead. The key to credibility is behavior. It’s doing what you say you will.

According to special guest Steve Farber, that means much more than following through on your commitments. Everything you say about what you stand for and what your values are is also a commitment. If you want to be a credible leader, you need to be a living, breathing, walking example of your values.

Links

Listen to Episode 635: Love Is Good Business.

Visit Steve’s Extreme Leadership website.

Get your copy of The Radical Promise: Mastering the Art of Doing What You Say You Will Do.

The Official BNI Podcast is sponsored by Misner Audio Programs.

Complete Transcript of Episode 982

Priscilla:
Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Official BNI Podcast. I’m Priscilla Rice, and I’m coming to you from Live Oak Recording Studio in Berkeley, California, and I’m joined on the phone today by the Founder and the Chief Visionary Officer of BNI, Dr. Ivan Misner. Hello Ivan, how are you and where are you?

Ivan:
I am home in Austin, Texas, this week, preparing for the [BNI] Global Convention, and I’ve got two really good friends who are coming to visit us. Dawn Lyons and Mike Macedonio are coming this week, so I’m looking forward to seeing them. Of course, you know Dawn and Mike.

Priscilla:
I know them well.

Ivan:
So they’re hanging out at my house later this week.

Priscilla:
Oh, they must be loving that.

Ivan:
Yeah, we have a good time together. So I’ve got a guest today. He has been on my podcast before, episode number 635, “Love is Good Business,” which is based on his previous book. Which, by the way, I loved that book, and I kind of argued with him at first that “Come on, you know, business and love. Seriously, Steve?” And he was like, “Yeah.” And then when he explained, I’m like, “Wow, yeah, love is damn good business.”

So Steve is a best-selling author. He’s a sought-after keynote speaker. He has spoken at a BNI Convention. I would argue probably one of the top two or three speakers I’ve ever had at a Convention in the 30-plus years that I’ve been doing Conventions. He’s a seasoned leadership coach consultant. He’s worked with a lot of public and private organizations, including BNI. He’s an author of six acclaimed books on leadership, including The Radical Leap which earned Fast Company’s Readers’ Choice Award and was named one of the 100 Best Business Books of All Time. Wow!

And his newest book, The Radical Promise: Mastering the Art of Doing What You Say You Will Do, which I think is really, really important, it was co-written with two of his good friends, Jim Kouzes, I think I’m pronouncing that right, and Barry Posner. Steve, welcome to the BNI Podcast.

Steve:
Thank you, Ivan. Great to be back with you, and thank you. Such high praise from you. I appreciate that.

Ivan:
Well, I mean it too. That’s the really nice part. Hey, so credibility is behavior, you suggest in the book. Talk about that a little bit.

Steve:
Yeah. So my co-authors in the book, Jim Kouzes and Barry Posner, have been conducting research on leadership for 50 years now. Jim is my most significant mentor, so it was really cool, full circle thing writing a book with him, but their research started with a very simple question, which is: What do you look for and admire in a leader? Someone whose direction you would willingly follow.             

The key word there is willingly, not because you have to, but because you want to. And they asked that question all around the world, across industries, across cultures, and the simple answer that came up again and again, back then and still to this day, is credibility. If this leader is not credible, I’ll follow because I have to – if they’re signing my paycheck, for example.

Ivan:
Mm hmm.

Steve:
But in order to engender commitment, I have to see this person as credible. And what then does credibility look like behaviorally? Simply put, a credible person is somebody who does what they say they’re going to do. So this idea of doing what you say you will do is, on the surface, such a simple thing that seems painfully obvious, but there’s a lot of nuance to it, and there’s a lot of challenge to it, and the stakes are very, very high. Because if we’re not seen as a person whose actions are congruent with their words, the whole foundation for leadership just crumbles.

Ivan:
Yeah, you know, the older I get, the less I believe in words, and the more I believe in behaviors. And now, words are powerful, don’t get me wrong, but behaviors are even more powerful. And credibility is part of the key fundamentals of what we teach with Visibility, Credibility, and then Profitability in terms of generating referrals. So, this fits really well with what we teach in BNI.

Steve:
Yeah, yeah. The words are really easy to use without any intention of following through, right? Yeah, you know flap our gums relentlessly and say things that we don’t really mean, or say things because they sound convenient in the moment. But words are important. I mean, we do want our leaders to say, for example, what commitments they’re going to make.

Ivan:
Yeah.

Steve:
We want them to say what values are important, you know. So with BNI, with your prevailing ethos of Givers Gain®, that’s not something you just hope people will experience. You say it. And once you say it, you’re putting a stake in the ground that says now measure us against this, and that’s what every leader should be doing. We need to say, “Here’s what I stand for. Here’s what’s important around here. These are the values that we should be adhering to. These are the standards that we set. These are the objectives that we have.” I say it, but then, of course, I need to be the walking, talking, living, breathing example of those words that come out of my mouth.

Ivan: Yeah, I mean, doing what you say is simple, but it’s not easy because following those words is the tough part.

Steve:
Yes, and it happens on a number of different levels. So you know, on the surface… and this is something that we really, I think we really do a good job of teasing out the nuances in this in the book because you know it’s written as a story, it’s written as a novel, so you get a chance to really experience what it’s like to stray from that, as the characters do in the book. It’s easy to lose sight of all of this, but the nuances are: on the surface, it sounds really simple. Doing what you say you will do is following through on promises and commitments. Okay, I tell you I’m going to call you tomorrow at 10 o’clock, I call you tomorrow at 10 o’clock. But on a deeper level, it’s what we were just talking about a couple minutes ago. Am I doing the values that I say are important? Am I modeling and leading by example through the things that are important to all of us on a values level? And when you look at the consequences, the advantages of being a congruent leader like that, and you look at the consequences of not doing that, what happens to the culture? What happens to the to the productivity and everything else? That’s where it really becomes very personal very quickly.

Ivan:
Yeah, you use an example of “Hey, I’ll call you tomorrow at 10 o’clock.” I would say you really want to under-promise and over-deliver. So I would often say, “I’ll get back to you before the end of the day tomorrow,” and then I would call them at 10 o’clock.

Steve:
Right.

Ivan:
So it’s like, “Oh wow, you got back [to me] early.”

Steve:
Yeah.

Ivan:
So you kind of over-deliver if possible, and to me that really shows a level of credibility when you show up even stronger than what you promised.

Steve:
Right, I agree. And there’s a challenge here most people aren’t even really aware of in my experience, and that is – oftentimes I make promises that I don’t even know I made. So, for example, if I say, “Hey, Ivan, I’m going to be in Austin next week. We should have lunch,” and maybe I’m thinking “or not.”

Ivan: (chuckling)

Steve:
You know, if it’s convenient, if it works out. But what are you likely to hear? Farber is going to be in town next week, and we’re going to have lunch. So next week comes and goes. We don’t have lunch. I didn’t follow through on that commitment because I didn’t even realize that I made it.

Ivan:
Yeah.

Steve:
And what happens? My credibility is still damaged in your eyes.

Ivan:
Yeah. All right. So you also talk about love and credibility being inseparable, and of course, episode number 635 was about your book Love Is Your Damn Good Business, which I really enjoyed. Talk about love and credibility being inseparable.

Steve:
Yeah, so love without credibility is just sentiment, right? It’s a greeting card basically.

Ivan:
Yes.

Steve:
So the idea of love in business, you know, we want our clients to love doing business with us. That’s where our advantage comes from. In order to make that happen in a sustainable way over time, we have to create an environment or a culture, a dynamic that people love working in. And I can’t do that as a leader unless I’ve got it myself first. It’s got to be authentic. I need to love this business, the people I’m working with, people I’m working for – otherwise, known as my customers.

So all that stuff again, it’s easy to say. You can print the banners and the buttons and you know bumper stickers about how much we love our customers, but the credibility comes from acting in a way that demonstrates that. So, what should love look like in the way that we do business is the question, and then how well and how consistently do we do that? So, credibility without love, it’s still a good thing, right?

Ivan:
Yeah.

Steve:
But love without credibility is just like I said, it’s an empty sentiment, and it’s more likely to create cynicism than it is to create any kind of advantage.

Ivan:
Yeah. What other message do you have from the book that you think my BNI members would have value from?

Steve:

Yeah. I think it’s really about when you look at… let’s talk about BNI members in particular. And again, I come back to Givers Gain® because to me, and I actually wrote about you guys in Love is Just Damn Good Business, and I used that example. So for a member, the question is: Am I — me personally, am I the walking, talking, living, breathing example of Givers Gain? Am I demonstrating what it’s like to give first and to be concerned with that, and to look at the value that I’m bringing to my fellow members and the people around me? For every value that we profess, to turn it back around and insert that first-person singular pronoun “I” — Am I doing this? And once I have the credibility, then I can demand it of others as well.

Ivan:
Yeah. It’s easy to say somebody else doesn’t practice Givers Gain®, but you got to start with yourself. Are you practicing it before you can point at other people? It’s that famous old saying that when I point at you, I’ve got three fingers pointing back to me.

Steve:
Right. Yes.

Ivan:
Yeah. All right. So your website is www.theradicalpromise.com. theradicalpromise.com. Any last thought before we wrap?

Steve:
Yeah. Just thank you for having me on the podcast again, Ivan. And I hope people will take that book to heart. You’ll enjoy the story, and then it ends with a very significant application section. So you’ll have the experience, and then you’ll know exactly what roadmap to follow to master the art of doing what you say you will do.

Ivan:
Well, Steve, thank you very much. I consider you a friend. You’re a participant in the Transformational Leadership Council with me, so I see you at least once or twice a year, and look forward to seeing you again. Thanks for being on BNI Podcast.

Steve:
Thank you.

Ivan:
Over to you, Priscilla.

Priscilla:
Okay, that was wonderful. I really look forward to looking at your book and reading it.

Ivan:
There’ll be a test next week, Priscilla.

Priscilla: (chuckling)
Okay, I’m ready for it. I think that’s it for this week.

This podcast is sponsored by www.misneraudioprograms.com. These audio programs will provide you with the tools and the inspiration to powerfully enhance your BNI experience. So check out the great material available to you at www.misneraudioprograms.com and then use the promo code IVAN50 for 50% off of everything [this code is good for a limited time]. All of the proceeds go to the BNI Foundation.

Thank you so much for listening. This is Priscilla Rice, and we look forward to having you join us again next week for another exciting episode of The Official BNI Podcast.

Synopsis

Dean Jackson explains to guest host Spencer Reynolds how you can use the psychology behind referrals to your benefit in BNI and in business.

Referrals are driven by self-preservation. People make referrals to add value to their own social groups.

People are highly protective of their close connections and want to share good experiences and warn against bad ones.

Recommending useful resources raises a person’s standing within their group, creating a natural sense of mutual value exchange.

Instead of asking your referral partners to tell people about you, train them to identify opportunities and report them back to you.

Make the referrer the hero. Create valuable, easy-to-share materials your referral partners can pass along.

Links

Visit Dean’s website: https://deanjackson.com.

Listen to the I Love Marketing Podcast.

Visit the BNI Tampa Bay website.

The Official BNI Podcast is sponsored by Misner Audio Programs.

Complete Transcript of Episode 981

Priscilla:
Hello, everybody, and welcome back to The Official BNI Podcast. I’m Priscilla Rice, and I’m coming to you from Live Oak Recording Studio in Berkeley, California. And I’m joined on the phone today by Spencer Reynolds, who is standing in today as a guest host for Dr. Misner, and he will be joining us from time to time. Hello, Spencer. Welcome to the podcast.

Spencer:
Thank you, Priscilla. I appreciate it. Excited to be with you.

Priscilla:
It’s great to have you. And who are you presenting us with today?

Spencer:
Today’s guest is someone that has spent decades, honestly, with business owners and teaching them a really powerful truth about marketing, and that it’s the world happens through relationships and trust and referrals. He’s a legendary marketer. He’s a co-host of an iconic podcast called I Love Marketing, and he’s a brilliant thinker on philosophy. And this is a good friend of mine. His name is Dean Jackson. Dean, welcome to the show.

Dean:
Thank you. Welcome. Glad to be here.

Spencer:
Yeah, you know, Dean, it’s hard to believe that we’ve known each other for 24 years now.

Dean:
Is that how long it’s been? That’s crazy.

Spencer:
And I’m only 22 in my head, so that math.

Dean:
Yeah, exactly. Me too. That’s so funny. We actually had Dr. Misner on our I Love Marketing podcast years ago.

Spencer:
Fantastic. Well, Dean, today I really want to talk about some of the wisdom that you’ve learned over years inside of marketing, and referrals in particular. But let’s talk about why. You know, Simon Sinek says start with why. So let’s start with why do people refer?

Dean:
I think that’s the biggest misconception that people have is that often one of the first blocks we have to overcome to really optimize the number of referrals that you can get, is to understand that people are not referring as a favor to you or a gift to you. When you have this mindset that you have to earn referrals or that you are somehow asking for referrals, you’re going down a path that is kind of counter to what we, as species, have evolved to do. As long as we have been playing the cooperation game and escape the food chain, basically we’ve become the most successful species ever. That we have learned the importance of looking out for each other and maintaining what I call our status in the herd. That if we look at it, that that’s the primary reason that we do anything, and the reason that we avoid anything is if we feel like something might damage our status in the herd.

And it’s a very, very… you know, it goes all the way back to when we were gathering as you know tribes of 150 people or groups, that we always had to kind of look out for each other, and we realized that we were going to be better off if we were constantly looking out for and adding value collectively. And so you see the remnants of these things happen, you know, evolve into even, our society things. The way we are today, we’re not kind of out on the savanna with our just 150 people. We’re in big cities, but we’re still among our group of 150 people. There’s been a lot of research on this, and you may have heard of Robin Dunbar.

Spencer:
Yeah.

Dean:
His research on what’s become known as Dunbar’s Number, and that number is 150, and it’s the number of relationships that we can maintain. Now we may know and recognize 1000 or more people, but we truly have relationship with 150, and we’re very guarded in those relationships. It’s our role to add value to our herd and to protect our herd from getting damaged. That’s why we’re…  If you look at everything we do, we want to recommend things to people.

Spencer:
Yeah, we do.

Dean:
You see it all the time. If you see a movie, or if we’re talking about movies, we already know, “You got to see this one.” or “Oh, don’t see that one.” We’re even guarding people’s experiences. We don’t want them to waste their time reading a book that wasn’t worth it or making sure that they do read a book that was. And it’s the same thing for service providers and products that we that we come in contact with.

Spencer:
Talk more about this status in the herd. Because you came out to Tampa [Florida] in our [BNI] region and did a conversation with me on stage at one of our big conferences, and that’s been talked about so much. That’s why I really wanted to bring you here. So give us that hunter-gatherer conversation so that people can hear you.

Dean:
If we look at it, that we constantly are looking to, I’ll call it like “keep our balanced books.” That this is what Robert Cialdini would talk about with reciprocation. That if I do something nice for you, then you kind of owe me a favor, and you see that all the time playing out just in our normal interactions. But how that would have worked back then is let’s say we’re out and we’re hunting and gathering, and I find a big patch of blueberries, and I see you on the trail, and I say, “Hey, Spencer, there’s a big patch of blueberries over that hill. Go get you some blueberries, too. And I’m going to carry these big ones all the way back to the camp.”

Now, in that moment, I am higher status than you because I have just added value to you. You feel this need to balance that out, so you may say to me, “Well, watch out behind those rocks because I saw a lion over there,” and now we’re even. I showed you where the blueberries were. You protected me from the lion. That’s the way the give and take of society works. So we’re constantly looking for opportunities to protect our herd and to guide our herd to different things. And whenever we do something nice for somebody or thoughtful for somebody, that is raising our status. They kind of owe us one in a way, and that’s what really drives the way that we that we interact with people and the way that we introduce new things or protect people. That’s why you see, like you see it all the time. So many people, like we depend on all the people around us. That’s why testimonials, and that’s why reviews and things are kind of like… we’re by proxy taking somebody else’s… They’re helpfully giving us advice on something.

Spencer:
Yeah, and that’s what I was going to ask: is why does that matter more now than it ever has in the past?

Dean:
Yeah, because there’s so many people that we don’t know that are trying to take advantage of us, you know. And so that’s why we try and protect the people that we know in our 150. Imagine, a city is just all these interlaced herds of your inner circle of 150 people And let’s just talk about Dunbar’s Number there. The 150 that we’re talking about are people that if you saw them at the grocery store, you’d recognize them by name. You’d stop and have a conversation with them. You have a relationship with them, and we’re constantly in conversation with those people, and that’s the absolute key to the referrals – that we have a relationship with somebody, we’re going to have conversation with them, and in those conversations, certain things have to take place. They have to notice that the conversation is about whatever it is that would be useful for you. They have to think about you, and then they have to introduce you to the person that they have the conversation with, and that’s how referrals actually happen.

Somebody, if I’m a real estate agent and I’m talking with one of my top 150, and they’re saying, “Oh, we’re getting transferred. We’re going to have to sell the house and move to Poughkeepsie.” Now, if I am, you know, if I’m in that situation and I hear somebody saying that, I may say, “Well, you should call Spencer because Spencer’s a great realtor, he can help you out. That’s my realtor. Tell him I told you to call.” That kind of thinking that we’re doing the right thing, and that’s often what people train their clients to do. They’ll tell people make sure and tell your friends about me, but what that doesn’t do is that doesn’t connect the dots between you and the person that you are referring.

And it’s an important thing because then somebody you know, you may run into them at the grocery store, and they’ll say, “Hey, did my friend Spencer ever give you a call?” “No, no, I never heard from him.” “Oh well, I guess they’re gone now.” “But I tell people about you all the time.” You hear people say that, right? That you encourage people to tell people about you. That’s exactly what they do. And what would be more valuable is instead of concentrating on them telling people about you, we need to train them to tell you about people. To tell you about their friends that are moving, and the best way to do that is to give them the opportunity to be the hero. So if I have a book…

Spencer:
Yeah. And Dean, we are going to have to wrap up here in just a minute. So I’m just wanting to make sure that you got that, and that we can finish up with this thought because this is good.

Dean:
No problem. So if I have a book called How to Sell Your House for Top Dollar Fast, and I train my clients to say, “Hey, just a quick note in case you hear someone talking about selling their house, and then if you do, give me a call or text me, and I’ll give you a copy of my book to give to them.” Now you’re giving something of value to somebody that’s going to make them look like a very thoughtful person. That’s going to reflect well on their status, that you thoughtfully went out of your way and you got me something.

Spencer:
And just like that, you raise your status in the herd.

Dean:
That’s exactly right.

Spencer:
Fantastic. Well, Dean, this is really good. I really hope people can see that inside of the philosophy. We have to think a little deeper than just surface level on the motivations of why people want to refer us, and I think this was a really great way to teach some of that. So thank you so much for your time. What’s the best way for people to be able to find out more about you if they want to hear more of this, Dean?

Dean:
I’m pretty easy to find at deanjackson.com.

Spencer:
There you go. Priscilla, back to you.

Priscilla:

Okay, perfect. Thank you both so much. That’s it for this week.

This podcast is sponsored by www.misneraudioprograms.com. These audio programs will provide you with the tools and the inspiration to powerfully enhance your BNI experience. So check out the great material available to you at www.misneraudioprograms.com and then use the promo code IVAN50 for 50% off of everything [this code is good for a limited time]. All of the proceeds go to the BNI Foundation.

Thank you so much for listening. This is Priscilla Rice, and we look forward to having you join us again next week for another exciting episode of The Official BNI Podcast.

Synopsis

Daniela Antongiovanni says kind leadership begins with listening beyond people’s behavior to the human needs underneath. Leaders fear that if they’re kind, they will be less effective, less authoritative, but the opposite is true. It’s much easier to judge or withdraw or hide behind authority instead of remaining open and curious and wanting to connect.

Model the behavior you want to see in your company, your team, or your BNI chapter. If you make people feel valued and understood, it’s easier to work with them to look at the impact of their behavior and find a better way forward.

Links

Listen to Episode 295: Lead from Among, Not from Above.

Listen to Episode 396: Host Leadership.

Listen to Episode 475: A Path to Business Leadership.

The Official BNI Podcast is sponsored by Misner Audio Programs.

Complete Transcript of Episode 980

Priscilla:
Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Official BNI Podcast. I’m Priscilla Rice, and I’m coming to you from Live Oak Recording Studio in Berkeley, California, and I’m joined on the phone today by the Founder and the Chief Visionary Officer of BNI, Dr. Ivan Misner. Hello Ivan, how are you and where are you?

Ivan:
I am in California today. I’m about to leave for the membership drive cruise, which we do almost every year, and I get to hang out with 100 of my closest friends, BNI members from all over the United States, so it’s always fun to do these.

Priscilla:
Oh, that sounds great!

Ivan:
Today I’ve got a guest, and she’s an interpreter, so she’s going to laugh at my interpretation of her… pronunciation of her last name. But I’ve known Daniella for a long time, Daniela Antongiovanni. Did I get it close?

Daniela:
Close enough, yeah.  (laughing)

Ivan:
Close enough (chuckling). You can call me miss-ner if you want then, Daniela. I’ve known Daniela a long time. Let me introduce her, and then I’ll tell you a quick story. She’s an interpreter, a business coach, an expert in nonviolent communication in a BNI franchise. What do they all have in common? Well, that’s what she’s going to talk about.

So we’re going to listen to that. She had visited a BNI meeting, I think the first one was in 2014, and was really shocked about the way people were doing business. And she recognized that this was going to make a difference in the world, and she joined BNI in 2015, became a Director Consultant in 2016 and Executive Director in 2020. I first met her when she was an interpreter for me, and I do this with all interpreters. I say, “Hey, if I go too fast, just you know, have somebody raise their hands, raise their arms, so that I can know we’re going too fast.”

And Daniela was like, “No, that’s not going to be a problem. Don’t worry about that.” And as soon as she said that, I knew I had a great interpreter because when the interpreters say, “Oh yeah, yeah, I’ll have somebody slow you down,” then I know I have an interpreter and I have to slow down. But with Daniela, she is right on it. She’s a great interpreter and a great Executive Director. Welcome to the BNI podcast, Daniela.

Daniela:
Thank you, Ivan. That’s very nice.

Ivan:
I told you that story, didn’t I?

Daniela:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. (both laughing) If you want, I have a counter story to that.

Ivan:
Well, I don’t want to take too much time from the podcast.

Daniela:
No, no, no. We’ll do it in person. Okay.

Ivan:
Okay. So, what is kind leadership, and why is it better?

Daniela:
Yes, I’ll go into the definition. But before that, let me recall a moment when I saw it so clearly in action, and actually that was through you, because when we first met in 2016 at the BNI Italy National Conference in Milan, where I was for the first time honored to be your interpreter. Actually, I found something very surprising happening because after your keynote, I was supposing that you would retreat to the VIP room, as many other high-profile speakers I had translated were doing all the time. And instead you came up straight to the interpreting booth, and you said to me, “Come with me. I want to meet the members. I want to shake their hands. I want to do selfies. I want to answer their questions. I want to be there for them.” And you did. And there, I realized that you know I was working with a very special and kind leader, because you were not using status to create distance, you were creating connection. And that was a turning point in my professional evolution because that made me genuinely curious about BNI, and still today I’m learning from the way you lead. So…

Ivan:
That’s very sweet of you to say, Daniela, and I appreciate it. I think it’s important that I go out and meet as many members as possible, and I have members say to me, “Oh, thank you so much. You know, it must be really difficult to do this.” And I and I usually tell them, “Look, I could be digging ditches. This is way easier than digging ditches. I’m happy to take photographs.”

Daniela:
Yeah, yeah. Then kind leadership actually for me begins exactly with this. It begins with listening beyond people’s behavior to the human needs underneath. Because tension and conflicts arise at the surface. Because we like to judge people, we judge them by what they do, what they say, by what they don’t do or don’t say. And then we like to be right when we judge them. But everybody sees reality from a different perspective, and we speak from experience, from our values, from our wounds, from our needs and desires, and they’re not right or wrong; they just are. And the point is that very often the needs are unexpressed, either because we’re not fully aware of them, or because by expressing them, maybe we will be made uncomfortable, and so we don’t really like that. So a kind leader is one who likes to go beneath the surface, be curious.

Ivan:
Mm hmm.

Daniela:
Which doesn’t mean that every behavior is acceptable. It means that when you understand the need that is engendering that behavior, you can look at the impact together, and together you can find a better way forward. That’s a healthy relationship, and we can do that every day when we meet people. And you know, the usual question is, “How are you?

Ivan:
Yeah.

Daniela:
Instead of just settling with the, “Fine, great,” in America, you say “terrific,” right? (both chuckling) Why don’t we just stay there and remain present, and we’ll meet the human being before the business person?

Ivan:
Yeah

Daniela:
That’s kind, I think.

Ivan:
Yeah, that is. I try to say I have a full life when I’m asked that question.

Daniela:
Yeah. Yes.

Ivan:
It could be I’m crazy busy, but it’s still full. I don’t say I’m crazy busy. I say I have a full life. I talked about this on a podcast before. So, what are some of your favorite questions?

Daniela:
My favorite questions are, for example, when I meet people, the first one is very open. The very open question is, “How’s life working out for you?” And then I project that into the future, and I ask them whether they have a dream they’re working on, if they’re creating something. And then, since life is not always so sweet, it’s also important to know what challenges are keeping you up at night.

Ivan:
Yeah.

Daniela:
But my all favorite question is, “What would you need right now?” Because that helps them go inside, and when you go inside, everybody knows what they know. And I just sometimes joke about and say, “Well, you can’t say a clone,” but very often they tell you right away what they need, and we can do that for them.

Ivan:
Do you find that the question about challenges needs to be towards the end of the conversation, not in the beginning, because they don’t really know you? My experience is, I’ve got to get them to open up before I ask them that question.

Daniela:
Yes, there needs to be possibly a meaningful relationship already in place, or in any case, some degree of safety, because safety is what makes people take their armor off and speak openly, and they can listen deeply. You can connect on a more profound level with people. Yes.

Ivan:
And this works outside BNI as well as inside BNI, I’m guessing.

Daniela:
Absolutely. That’s where the skepticism is strongest, where I think the need is highest because they know….

Ivan:
I like that. Repeat that. Repeat that. That’s powerful.

Daniela:
Yeah, because the skepticism is strongest outside BNI because there’s a very competitive culture around leaders, and the need is the highest, I think. Yes, absolutely. Because leaders fear that if they’re kind, they will be less effective, less authoritative. And let me tell you a story about that.

Ivan:
Yeah.

Daniela:
I was coaching the top managers in an automotive company there, and the production manager was very skeptical, and he argued, “You know, I have 138 males from different cultures. It can get very rough. We have war rooms to resolve conflicts,” which I think is quite ridiculous. They should be called peace rooms if they want to be constructive. (both chuckling) But anyway, this is what they do. And then I said to him, “You know, but why don’t you just, you know, it may not be easy, but it’s surely simple. Be what you would like to see in your department.” Someone else said that before me, right? So he started going down to the factory floor, greeting them, “Hey, how are you? Is there anything I can do for you?” And they were very uncomfortable at first, and they made jokes.

Ivan:
Yeah.

Daniela:
They were shy, but he continued. And after six months, they were starting to support each other and begin to work as a team. They were going out for lunch together, which is not so hard for Italians normally, but they need a special invitation.

Ivan: (laughing)

Daniela:
Okay, and that was amazing because then the results came.

Ivan:
Right.

Daniela:
And so you see, kind leadership or kindness in general, changes the quality of the relationships, and when you change the quality of the relationships, that changes the results.

Ivan:
Yeah, it absolutely does. And you know, there’s a school of thought about aggressive leadership, and there are a number of billionaires, who I won’t name, that have that track record. But that’s just not who I want to be. You know, success to me is not just about the success of the business, but it’s the success of the relationships that you have. And so, I love this idea of kind leadership.

Daniela:
Yes.

Ivan:
Now, having said that, is being kind not considered… This is a setup question because I know the answer. Is being kind not considered a sign of weakness? I

Daniela:
It is often mistaken for that, but I think it really requires courage. Because it’s much easier to judge or withdraw or hide behind authority instead of remaining open and curious and wanting to connect. And you know, make that other person feel seen, understood, and valued-a real connection. That’s what we need most, along with grounding. That’s how we build meaningful relationships. The ones that make leaders not feel lonely. Sometimes it can feel lonely at the top, and when you are creating an inner circle, where you can feel safe, where you can speak openly, where you can listen deeply, challenge respectfully, and take responsibility for the impact that you are making. I think that is not lowering the bar, and that is not weak. That is not soft leadership. That is kind leadership. That’s a way of really building meaningful relationships. Sometimes they can go even beyond business in BNI, for example. There’s a beautiful ecosystem for that. And you know, did I tell you about Lorenzo? Lorenzo, we joined together the same week in 2015 in January, we began as fellow members. Today, he is a closest friend of mine, besides being my heads of communication. And BNI is a perfect ecosystem for this. And it doesn’t really surprise me that we made it into the Inc. 5000 list. Absolutely.

Ivan:
Yes, we have just recently. BNI made it into that. Well, I agree with you. Kindness is often seen as a weakness, but it’s not. And I tell, you know, we don’t train people. People become leaders, and they’re not necessarily trained to be leaders. But I think if you generally can, you know, apply the systems and the rules more like Mandela than Attila, you’re going to be a good leader. And that’s one of the things that we say. Well, we’re over time, Daniela. Is there any last thought before we wrap?

Daniela:
The last thought is really kind leadership is not soft leadership. Kindness doesn’t make our leadership role less challenging, but we are no longer feeling alone.

Ivan:
Yeah, I love it. Daniela, you have a couple of websites, dacoach.it and flowxhub.it.

Daniela:
Yes.

Ivan:
Thank you so much for being here. I hope to see you on my next visit to Italy.

Daniela:
Yes, absolutely, and we’ll meet at Global Convention very easily.

Ivan:
Absolutely.

Daniela:
Okay, I’m looking forward.

Ivan:
Over to you, Priscilla.

Priscilla:

Okay, well, that’s it for this week. Thank you so much. I enjoyed it very, very much.

This podcast is sponsored by www.misneraudioprograms.com. These audio programs will provide you with the tools and the inspiration to powerfully enhance your BNI experience. So check out the great material available to you at www.misneraudioprograms.com and then use the promo code IVAN50 for 50% off of everything [this code is good for a limited time]. All of the proceeds go to the BNI Foundation.

Thank you so much for listening. This is Priscilla Rice, and we look forward to having you join us again next week for another exciting episode of The Official BNI Podcast.

Synopsis

As a new BNI member, you need to look at every aspect of the way you present yourself to your chapter and your prospects. That includes your word choice. Using expressions like “honestly” and “to be honest” can backfire. Someone who’s just met you may wonder whether the rest of what you said was dishonest. They may wonder whether what you’re saying now is dishonest. Just make your statement.

If you have to qualify the statement, Dr. Misner likes to say “In my experience.” Guest Jim Meadows prefers “to be clear” if you’re putting something in simpler words. If you say what you mean and back it up with your actions, people will know you’re honest.

Links

Listen to Episode 7: Simplify Your Story.

Read the Reliable Insights Blog.

Listen to Episode 858: The Makeover of Your Weekly Ask.

The Official BNI Podcast is sponsored by Misner Audio Programs.

Complete Transcript of Episode 979

Priscilla:
Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Official BNI Podcast. I’m Priscilla Rice, and I’m coming to you from Live Oak Recording Studio in Berkeley, California, and I’m joined on the phone today by the Founder and the Chief Visionary Officer of BNI, Dr. Ivan Misner. Hello Ivan, how are you and where are you?

Ivan:
I am doing great. I’m at my home in Austin, Texas. I think I’m going to go out into the hot tub this afternoon. September is a great time to go on out into the hot tub.

Priscilla:
Okay, good. And who do you have with us today?

Ivan:
I have somebody who’s been on BNI podcast before. This is his second time on BNI podcast. He was on episode 858, The Makeover of Your Weekly Ask, and that is Jim Meadows. He’s entering his seventh year as a BNI member in Kansas City, Missouri [USA]. He’s been the Vice President, the Education Coordinator, the Chapter Success Coach. He’s a member of the International Board of Advisors. He’s earned a couple of master’s degrees. His four-decade career includes corporate training, leadership development, and change management. He specializes in credit card payment processing for the chiropractic industry. That’s a niche industry, and I love seeing niche industries in BNI, and his BNI experience has inspired a long-term goal, which is earning a DBA at Pennsylvania State University. DBA, I assume, is a Doctorate in Business Administration, Jim?

Jim:
Correct.

Ivan:
Well, welcome back to BNI Podcast. You and Kathy are now happy empty-nesters, I understand, and believe me, I get that totally. So, welcome to BNI Podcast. You’ve got an interesting concept here – A Better Word Than Honesty. So, every new BNI member wants to be a high performer as soon as possible. How is this relevant to them?

Jim:
Excellent question. Couple of things: when you’re new in BNI, you want to become a high performer as soon as possible, and that means everything you do, you need to evaluate. What do you look like on the power of one? Are you keeping up with all your training? How do you present yourself? What’s your deportment like? And we’re going to focus today on how do you use words. Words are very, very important. I think we’ve all been there, either as a perpetrator or a recipient or both. Someone wants to emphasize a point, create goodwill, sound persuasive, close a sale, and then it happens. You use some form of one of these phrases: “to be honest with you,” “in all honesty,” “if I’m really being honest with you.” Now Ivan, I call these phrases honesty validators.

Ivan:
Yeah.

Jim:
Because we believe that by incorporating them into our language, we somehow reinforce the truth of our words.

Ivan:
Right.

Jim:
Unfortunately, all of that belies the presence of honesty.

Ivan:
Yeah, I think we’ve all been guilty of that. I certainly have.

Jim:
Well, there was a 20th century British philosopher of language by the name of Paul Grice. He founded Gricean pragmatics. One of his key tenets is that language is supposed to be a cooperative activity, and it should also be economical. Don’t use words you don’t need. Any time you use a phrase or a word that technically is not required, it could actually be signaling the opposite of your intentions. In this case, if honesty is your default position, then why would you want to signal my default position is dishonesty?

Ivan:
Yeah, yeah. I think again, I think almost all of us have done it. I read a book many, I mean, decades, like 40 years ago, called ***On Writing Well, and he uses a term in there about deobfuscating your writing, to not obfuscate it by adding in words like honesty because it just…. or saying things like “honestly this is the way I feel.” Well, you know, you’re right. Do you often lie when you talk about how you feel? I mean, that’s the issue I think you’re bringing up. Yeah?

Jim:
Absolutely correct.

Ivan:
So how do you solve this dilemma?

Jim:
Yeah, how do we solve it? Well, a couple of points here. Naturally, most people hear this and immediately yell, “No, I’m always honest.” But unfortunately, the unintended message contradicts that affirmation, and it’s always the unintended message received by your audience that has consequences with which you might not be happy. So I asked the question many years ago: Do we have a better word than honesty?

As a lifelong public speaker and writer, I’ve given a lot of thought to this perplexing problem, and I think I’ve arrived at a simple, elegant solution that works very well for me. It might work well for others, too. So I basically maintain that the superior solution is to replace honesty validators with what I’ve termed clarity validators, because these phrases come across so much better. Think about it: “to be clear with you,” “in all clarity,” “if I’m really being clear with you.” You see, people will forgive you for fumbling clarity because anyone can make a mistake. People find it very difficult to forgive you for fumbling honesty, because honesty is a thoughtful, willful choice.

Ivan:
What do you think about using a word like candidly?

Jim:
Candidly is sort of a substitute for honest, for honestly. So I avoid that word as well, because again, if I have to say to you, speaking candidly, I’m already shooting myself in the foot with my character and my integrity.

Ivan:
All right, what about the phrase “in my experience”?

Jim:
I think that’s an excellent one because that comes from a place of your personal professional experience, and that tends to carry much more weight with the audience because now they know they’re hearing something important, and your experience has proven it.

Ivan:
Alright. So if you embrace this clarity validator logic to replace the honesty validators, how do you do that? Explain that further.

Jim:
Yeah, that’s a wild ride. When I made the decision several years ago to replace all of my honesty validators with clarity validators, I had to prepare for a battle in my mind because so many times I would automatically just let it slip in, honestly, or to be honest with you, and then suddenly realize, “Oh, I didn’t want to say it that way.” So you have to really make a concerted effort to think through your linguistic mental library of what’s on autopilot, and get all of those autopilot honesty words out of there, and replace them with clarity words.

Ivan:
And so, generally speaking, you’re saying something like “clearly” or “in all clarity” or the one I like to use oftentimes is “in my experience” is more genuine than saying honestly.

Jim:
Yes, yes, it definitely is, and we also have to just simply remember that practitioners in deception research flag these kinds of words. They’re just not considered nice words if you’re concerned about integrity and how you want to convey who you are as a person.

Ivan:
So you maintain that there’s a vital dynamic between communication, relationship, leadership. Tell us more about that.

Jim:
Well, if you really think about it, your personal leadership and relationship and words are all linked together. Here’s what I’m talking about: your leadership is the foundation for all your success. But what builds your leadership? It’s built by your relationships. So you’ve got to have great relationships, relationships of integrity, that feeds into your leadership, and that is the basis for your success. But let’s go all the way back to relationship. Relationships are fundamentally driven by communication. Communication is the lifeblood of your relationships, so you have to go all the way back to the words you use, how you choose and use those words, if you’re truly wanting to invest in positive relationships. They’re all linked together. It’s a wonderful positive dynamic, and you have to play it that way.

Ivan:
I’m trying to think of times where, because I have purposely not tried to use the phrase “honestly” for the reasons that you’re describing, and I’m trying to think of the things that I’ve replaced it with. Certainly, “in my experience” is one of them. I’ve used a variation of clarity. I’ll say things like, you know, clearly that’s an important issue. Let’s drill down and talk about that. That kind of phrase. Does that kind of thing work better, you think?

Jim:
Absolutely. That’s exactly the kind of wording and verbiage that is only going to help you come across with strong integrity. And again, people will forgive you for making a mistake with clarity, but it’s much more difficult if they feel you’re making mistakes with your honesty, your integrity.

Ivan:
Yeah. So this is a really subtle issue, I think, for a lot of people that they may not see the real power in what you’re talking about. I’m not one of them; I believe you’re right, and I would urge people listening to this to really give this some thought and find other ways of describing or… I think oftentimes it’s used as a filler phrase. It’s almost like the “uh” “well” you know, it’s almost like that. It’s used as a filler phrase, and what you’re pointing out is that there are better filler phrases that are clearer than saying something like “in all honesty.” Is that a good assessment?

Jim:
That’s an excellent assessment. So many people, just because of our culture and the media around us, so many people automatically throw in, “Well, to be honest,” because they didn’t really want to say it if they truly understood what it implies. But it becomes a filler phrase. It becomes “umm” “uhh” – that kind of a thing.

Ivan:
Exactly. Exactly. So I think your point here is well made, and I would urge members to really give this a try. Try to do these things that you’re talking about. We’re out of time. Any last thought before we wrap?

Jim: Certainly, I would simply say to anybody in a conversation, “Hey, if you’re an honest person, then stop speaking in a manner that sends the message ‘My default position is dishonesty,’ clearly.”

Ivan:
Yeah, I’m not sure I would say that to people. But if you’re trying to train them on speaking, maybe if they’re open to it. Otherwise they may not take it real well. I bet, however, you have talked about this on your blog, which is blog.reliableinsights.com. That’s blogreliableinsights.com. Jim, thanks for being on BNI podcast again. I appreciate you.

Jim:
Thank you very much.

Ivan:
Over to you, Priscilla.

Priscilla:

Okay, great. I want to thank you both for that interesting conversation. So, thank you so much for that.

This podcast is sponsored by www.misneraudioprograms.com. These audio programs will provide you with the tools and the inspiration to powerfully enhance your BNI experience. So check out the great material available to you at www.misneraudioprograms.com and then use the promo code IVAN50 for 50% off of everything [this code is good for a limited time]. All of the proceeds go to the BNI Foundation.

Thank you so much for listening. This is Priscilla Rice, and we look forward to having you join us again next week for another exciting episode of The Official BNI Podcast.

Synopsis

If you can empower people to want to help you, then ultimately all they need to know is how to help you, as guest Phil Berg likes to say. But before they can want to help you, your referral partners have to trust you to uphold their reputations. Prospects have to feel safe giving you their money.

Don’t introduce doubts about your reliability by showing up late to meetings or complaining about how busy you are. First, get clear on your own goals, how to achieve them, and a realistic timeline. Next, make sure you know why someone would want to hire you.

Only then can you teach people how to talk about you in a way that results in the other person being excited to receive a call from you.

Links

Read Networking Is a Marathon, Not a Sprint.

Listen to Episode 888: How to Educate Others to Refer You.

Listen to Episode 889: Taking a Leadership Role in Your Chapter

Visit Phil Berg’s website, philberg.coach.

The Official BNI Podcast is sponsored by Misner Audio Programs.

Complete Transcript of Episode 978

Priscilla:
Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Official BNI Podcast. I’m Priscilla Rice, and I’m coming to you from Live Oak Recording Studio in Berkeley, California, and I’m joined on the phone today by the Founder and the Chief Visionary Officer of BNI, Dr. Ivan Misner. Hello Ivan, how are you and where are you?

Ivan:
I just got back in time to do this podcast. I’ve been doing a keynote presentation for an organization in Tampa, and of course, I made sure to stop by BNI and do a quick BNI event there in Tampa as well.

Priscilla:
Oh, that sounds good. So, who do you have on the line today?

Ivan:
I have a really good friend, longtime friend, Phil Berg. Phil has been on four, or this may be his fifth, podcast that we have done together. Phil is married to his childhood sweetheart Jackie, and they’ve been together for 50 years. They have two kids. He’s a former UK and Ireland BNI Assistant National Director. He’s the first person in all of Europe to develop a networking group, a BNI group of over 100 members. He’s been part of BNI for 29 years to date, and he’s an Amazon best-selling author in this book that I’ve heard of called Networking is a Marathon, Not a Sprint. Actually, Phil and I are co-authors along with Bharat Daga. And of course, he’s an international keynote speaker. Phil, welcome back to BNI Podcast.

Phil:
Thank you so much. Thank you for having me back.

Ivan:
Well, I heard you do a presentation in the United Kingdom when I was visiting on building trust or introducing doubt. So, talk to me a little bit about the necessity of relationship building to ensure that you ultimately achieve what you’re trying to achieve, which is building trust.

Phil:
Yeah, I think trust is a necessity, and I think people need to manage their expectations regarding this. So, for example, they join our amazing BNI, and I think it’s like the equivalent of I’ve joined the gymnasium. Why aren’t I getting fit? And for me, you’ve got to build those relationships. I have a saying that if you can empower people to want to help you, then ultimately all they need to know is how to help you. But the want to, in my eyes, comes first. You know, am I safe to pass you over to someone that needs you? Is my reputation going to be intact? Are you going to, you know, live up to my boast about you, which I think is an element of trust.

Ivan:
So let me understand this. Are you saying that you need to know exactly what you want to achieve, and why, in order to accomplish that?

Phil:
I think for sure, and that’s certainly in our Networking is a Marathon, Not a Sprint book. That ultimately, if I really don’t know my why… You know, why do I want this person? What do I do for them? Why do they want me? And ultimately, why are you safe to introduce me to them? So I think the why is a very big word, and if you connect all those three, I think all three need to be in place for the introduction to happen comfortably, safely, and trustworthily.

Ivan:
And if you don’t do that, is that how you introduce doubt? Because the doubt is what I found interesting for your topic.

Phil:
Yeah, I think so. I have a saying that people’s perception is their truth until they know the real truth. So, if I have any concerns, and as you know, you say this fantastically. The way we’re seen as doing anything is the way we’re perceived as doing everything, and that’s from your good self. And that stuck with me many years ago.

So if you’re generally arriving somewhere at the last moment and breathing deeply because you’ve just been panicking and rushing, then I figure that that’s how you’re going to be a first impression to the person I recommend you to.

If I say to you, “How are you doing?” and you say, “Oh my goodness, it’s fantastic, but I’m working 20 hours a day.” Even that is like, “Okay, well, that sounds great, but can I introduce you to somebody? Because can you cope with that? Can I trust that you are going to represent my reputation positively?” So I start with doubts. For me, I don’t trust anybody until I can, because I’ve made the mistake of I trust you and then I get let down.

Ivan:
All right, so just for the record, I should never say I’m busier than a one-armed paper hanger.

Phil: (chuckling)
I think there’s a way to say it, actually.  I actually teach people to say, “Hey, you know, it’s fantastic. I’m really, really busy. It’s great. I can always handle more, but it’s really good.”

Ivan:
Yeah, that’s a good answer. That’s a good answer.

Phil:
Yeah.

Ivan:
I actually, I have so many people say to me, “You must be really busy.” I’ve stopped saying, “Yeah, I’m busy.” What I try to do is say, “I have a full life.” Sometimes it’s really, really full, but I have a full life, which is to me a very much more positive way of describing it.

Phil:
I agree, and I think a lot depends on what the person wants when asked that question. If, for example, you don’t want anything more, then I think your answer is beautiful. But for people in business, there is an alleged saying that the number one reason people don’t close a deal is because they don’t ask for the order.

Ivan:
Yeah.

Phil:
So likewise, you don’t want to tell everyone how crazy hours you’re working, which stops people giving you the business opportunity because they’re just worried that are you going to phone someone back in an appropriate amount of time? Can you fulfill their need, or are you just going to squeeze this in? Am I going to be the one to give you a heart attack?

Ivan:
So you also talked about, at the conference, about knowing what you need to do, being able to achieve what you want, have realistic expectations of a timeline. You want to talk about that a little bit?

Phil:
Yeah, I think I said it. I think it’s the equivalent of going to a gymnasium and expecting to lose my tummy, which I’m not doing. I’m expecting to lose my tummy after the first session. I think there has to be a realistic expectation. However, as per our book, you can speed the timeline up. I mean, one-to-ones are a very, very effective way to, if you like, get people to understand you more on a personal level. As you know through BNI, we have the GAINS profile, and sometimes even answering that myself… I remember when I was first a member, and the G stands for goals, and it was okay, Phil, What are your goals? And honestly, I struggled because it was like, well, actually, Phil, what are my goals? And if I’m not clear with them, how can anybody help me?

Ivan:
Exactly.

Phil:
I think it was really, really important to know not just why do I want an introduction to that person, but why do they want me? And I think when we understand that we’re all solution providers, then I want people to phone somebody up and say, “Oh my gosh, you know, I’ve got to introduce you to Phil because I know he can help you with this challenge.”

Ivan:
Yeah. Well, let me let me throw a little curveball at you here, Phil.

Phil:
Great.

Ivan:
The title for this is “Building Trust or Introducing Doubt.”

Phil:
Yeah.

Ivan:
In just a couple of sentences, what do you think is the key element to that title for the listeners?

Phil:
I would say being what others need you to be is the answer that comes straight into my head. So, for example, you could think really well of yourself, and yet actually others don’t feel well of you. So I always say, you know, it’s one of my Bergisms, that reputation is what people say about us when we are not there. People work very, very hard to purchase your product or your service. Do they feel safe and comfortable to give [you] the money and know that they’re going to be happy at the end of it?

Ivan:
So it’s really sort of your perception versus your reputation?

Phil:
Yeah, I think my perception may not be their truth.

Ivan:
Yeah, yeah, good. Well, any last thoughts before we wrap up, Phil?

Phil:
I’d say make sure you know what you want. Make sure you know the activity to achieve it, and I think it’s very, very important to educate those around you and start prioritizing. You know, sometimes we wait for results because we don’t actually approach the people that could help us first. So have a look at who you know can help you and make sure they understand what you’re looking for, and particularly, and I’m passionate about this: how to talk about you in a way and a simple way that results in the other person being excited to receive a call from you.

Ivan:
Yeah. Phil, thanks for being back on BNI Podcast. For anyone that wants more information on Phil, go to www.philberg.coach. That’s Phil, P-H-I-L-B as in boy, E-R-G. dot coach. Phil, thanks again for being on BNI Podcast.

Phil:
My privilege, my honor. Look after yourself.

Ivan:
And by the way, thank you for everything you did with the book Networking is a Marathon. You’re a great co-author.

Phil:
Oh, you’re lovely. Thank you so much. Privileged.

Ivan:
Back to you, Priscilla.

Priscilla:
All right, I think that’s it for this week. Thank you both so much for the great information.

This podcast is sponsored by www.misneraudioprograms.com. These audio programs will provide you with the tools and the inspiration to powerfully enhance your BNI experience. So check out the great material available to you at www.misneraudioprograms.com and then use the promo code IVAN50 for 50% off of everything [this code is good for a limited time]. All of the proceeds go to the BNI Foundation.

Thank you so much for listening. This is Priscilla Rice, and we look forward to having you join us again next week for another exciting episode of The Official BNI Podcast.