Talk About Talk - Executive & Leadership Communication Skills

Have you ever been told you need to work on your “executive presence” and walked away thinking, what does that even mean?

In this Talk About Talk episode, you’re getting a front-row seat to one of Dr. Andrea Wojnicki’s live training sessions. Andrea reframes the way we think about executive presence, calling it what it really is: leadership presence, and shares five concrete strategies to help you build it.

You’ll also hear live Q&A from the audience on everything from dressing for presence, to navigating small talk in a high-stakes geopolitical moment, to showing up credibly across cultures.

Executive Presence 2.0 by Sylvia Ann Hewlett – https://amzn.to/4bGiZex

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TRANSCRIPTION

Andrea Wojnicki: Let’s do this. Let’s talk about talk. 

Welcome to the Talk About Talk podcast. My name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki. Please just call me Andrea. I’m an executive communication coach at Talk About Talk, where I coach ambitious professionals to improve their communication. So you can achieve your career goals. 

Rethinking Executive Presence: From Vague Feedback to Actionable Skills

This episode is a little bit different from most. You’re gonna hear a live training session that I ran recently, focused on leadership presence and executive presence. In this episode, you’re gonna learn my framework for leadership presence, and you’re gonna hear five different strategy that you can choose to adopt to help you boost your leadership presence.

You’ll also hear live questions from the audience for this session. I hope you enjoy it. Here we go.

Welcome everyone. We are here today to talk about executive presence. So if you’re here, I’m guessing that either. You are a very ambitious person who has looked around at the folks around you that are knocking it outta the park in terms of their career. And you’re like, what is different about them? And I have people who come to me, and they’re like, it’s communication, but it’s more than communication, Andrea. It’s their executive presence. 

So that might be you, or you may have been told by someone, maybe a mentor, or maybe even your boss. It might have come up in your annual review that you need to work on developing your executive presence. I hear this a lot from folks. So the good news is I do a lot of thinking, writing, and coaching about executive presence.

I’m gonna be encouraging you in the next hour to start to think about executive presence in a little bit of a different way, but a way where you can get traction. So here’s my promise to you. I’m gonna share with you a framework for how you can think about this sometimes nebulous topic or vague topic, you could say in a way that can really help you get traction in developing your executive presence.

And I’m also gonna share with you, I’m a, for those of you who know me, I’m a big fan of the power of three, but I’m actually gonna share with you five different strategies or tactics that can help you establish this elusive executive presence. And so my challenge to you is to identify which one or two of these five that I’m sharing with you that you can adopt for yourself.

So consistent with being, you know, focused on the power of three, we’re really gonna go through three things. First of all, we’re gonna talk about what executive presence is, and this is where I think I might surprise some of you with how I think about defining executive presence. The second thing. I’m gonna share with you the five different ways of establishing executive presence.

And the third thing is, I’m gonna share with you an opportunity for you to work with me. It’s a program that I have to help people establish their executive presence and beyond, and then we’re gonna open it up for an open q and a, which is truly, it’s become my favorite part of doing these live coaching sessions.

What Is Executive Presence—and Why It Feels So Vague

So, as I said, some people. Are sent to me by their boss to work on their executive presence, and some people proactively come to me. And interestingly, something that I’ve noticed, and I’ve been reading a little bit about this lately, many people are not a big fan of the term executive presence. And there may be a couple reasons for this.

The one that I think is very valid is that executive presence seems very subjective, right? It’s like you know it when you see it, but how do you actually define it? And in fact, some people have told me, and I think that this is a very eloquent way of putting it, that being told that you need to develop your executive presence can sound like vague coded feedback.

That means you don’t have the it factor and you probably never will. I’ve heard those exact words from a couple of my clients, and they’re like, Andrea, I need to figure this out. And I’m like. It can be subjective, but we’re gonna turn it into something that’s a little bit more tangible or quantifiable, like real skills spec.

We’re gonna specify, forget this vagueness, forget this coded feedback. We’re gonna make it into something that where you can get some traction. So when I ask people to define what they think it means, usually what comes up is something around gravitas. And inspiring people. So it’s a combination, often of gravitas, which I would say is a synonym for confidence as an executive, right, and inspiring people.

And I would push back on that definition. I would say that sounds a little bit like a definition of effective leadership in general. There is a book, which I have over here by Sylvia Ann Hewlett, that is one of the best books I’ve read on executive presence, and she recently republished it. It’s called EP, as in Executive Presence 2.0, and she says there are three ingredients based on her research in what comprise executive presence.

It is  in fact, number one is gravitas. Number two is communication skills, and number three is what she calls how you show up. So your physical presence, and it’s kind of in that order, right? So if you’re gonna, if you’re gonna do one thing, it’s establishing gravitas, and then it’s communication skills, and then it’s how you show up.

When I read this book, I thought to myself, for those I see some people in the room here that I’ve coached before. You probably know that I coach people on all of these topics. I would consider gravitas and confidence to be. A communication skill. Of course, communication skills are communication skills, and how you show up is certainly a communication skill.

So I say great executive presence is all about communication. So that’s why we’re here, and that’s why I’m here to coach you. I wanna read to you the definition from Sylvia Ann Hewlett’s book about what she says executive presence is, it’s something to think about here. She says, executive presence is typically perceived as consisting of three elements in descending order of importance, gravitas, skillful communication.

The right appearance having, and she tells a story about showing up for her first job, interview out of college, dressed completely wrong, and how she attributes that to the fact that she didn’t get the job. So a lot of people say, well, how I dress doesn’t matter. It matters. People see you often before they hear a word that comes outta your mouth.

So I would say that this is a great start, but based on my years of coaching. Hundreds of ambitious professionals, leaders, and aspiring professionals and leaders. I’ve noticed a trend, and I’m gonna share a framework with you. I’m also gonna encourage you to think about this executive presence in a different way.

So I’m gonna start sharing my screen here. I want you to rethink executive presence. Because of the issues that I said before that it may be vague coded feedback. Some people also say when they think of executive presence, they think of like an old school 1990s. Dictatorship, authoritarian style male in a standing behind a podium, in a blue pinstripe suit.

I know some of you, I see some names where we were hanging out in those days, and that was what an effective leader with executive presence looked like. Okay? 

From Executive Presence to Leadership Presence

So I’m encouraging us now to rethink this and maybe call it. Leadership presence, and I would say leadership presence, ’cause that’s really what we’re aspiring to, right?

Leadership presence is the ability to establish credibility and create impact. So you’re doing things, you can see there’s this upward arrow, right? You are doing all the things. Maybe some of the things that Sylvia Ann Hewlett, the author of, of EP 2.0, all of the things that she talked about will help you establish credibility so that you can create impact. 

And by the way, what is impact? I turn the question back to you. What is your goal? Are you looking to get promoted? Are you looking to get a new job? Are you looking to be heard in meetings? I hear this all the time. I don’t say a lot in meetings, Andrea, and when I do, people ignore me, and then someone else will say something similar, and they’ll get all the attention.

I literally had this conversation last night in a coaching session. So impact can be big or small, right? Being heard, it can be having people congratulate you after you give a formal presentation. It can be a new job, it can be a promotion, it can be any of these things. The impact is what you want. And then how are you gonna get there?

Well, there’s, you can see there’s a few steps here, but you’re not gonna get there unless you have credibility in the eyes of others. Okay. So I am encouraging us to define a new term and maybe forego this executive presence term, which has some baggage, and instead call it leadership presence. 

Five Ways to Build Leadership Presence (Where to Focus First)

Okay, so now I’m gonna share with you five ways to work your way up this hierarchy or this pyramid.

Like I said, I’m a big fan of the power of three, but we have an hour together, so I’m, I’m gonna share five with you. The first is, you know, I’m a communication coach, and I would say making sure that you’re never gonna have credibility if you’re not an effective communicator, right? It’s as simple as that.

And so by foundational communication skills, by the way, I do not mean the basics. I don’t mean easy things. I mean foundational communication skills, like being a really effective formal presenter. Learning how to lead meetings that are really impactful. I’m talking about listening skills and not just shifting from what a lot of people default to, which is passive to active listening.

There are many, many ways that you can focus on your foundational communication skills. And by the way, the most. Successful senior folks that I coach are constantly upgrading their foundational communication skills. I’m not sure if foundational is the right word, ’cause I don’t want people to think it means like basic things that you get outta the way.

They’re things that are the foundation of how you present yourself. And so three great examples are introducing yourself with confidence, listening, as I mentioned, and formal presentation skills. For those of you who haven’t heard or learned myself, introduction framework, I just wanna say this. Your self-introduction is the most direct way that you have to reinforce your professional identity.

These are your words from you about you. So it is well worth your time to learn how to introduce yourself with confidence. And this does not mean learning a script that you memorize and rehearse and then spit out why? Because it sounds rehearsed. Because it is, and it’s not customized for your audience.

So instead, I encourage you to learn my framework, and I think someone’s gonna put it in the chat so you can read the article if you like it. There’s an HBR article from 2020 that I had published with this framework, and in 2023 is one of the three most downloaded articles at hbr.org. The framework is really easy.

You don’t even need to take notes to remember it. It’s three things, present, past, future. So who are you, what do you do, and where do you do it? Hi, my name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki. Please call me Andrea. I’m an executive communication coach at talk about Talk Boom, who you are and what you do. And if you’re between jobs, you could say, my expertise is in the finance industry or in the pharmaceutical industry.

And I’m a finance expert, right? So you could clarify what your industry or functional and or functional expertise is. So that’s step one. Present past tense. Here’s where in a professional context, you establish credibility, so you could. Mention previous jobs. You could mention a project that you just finished.

You could mention an award that you won. You could mention your credentials, your university degrees, whatever this is. You choose, depending on the context, one, two, or three things to help you establish your credibility. And again, it’s not a script. You’re choosing the things that are relevant. 

So if I’m pitching to an HR leader who’s thinking about bringing me in to do some coaching or workshops for the folks on their team. I will tell them about how I earned my doctorate from Harvard Business School, where my research focused on exactly what I’m coaching you on. It was interpersonal communication and consumer psychology.

I would mention that I used to teach at the University of Toronto in the MBA program, or whatever I thought was relevant for that person. Right. So you establish. Credibility with the past tense, and then you shift to the future. This is easy, and it’s often forgotten, but it’s like the icing on the cake.

One or two sentences where you demonstrate enthusiasm about the future. Like, I’m really excited to help all of you establish executive presence or leadership presence so your careers can skyrocket. Ideally, you make it about the other person, what you’re excited about for them. Okay, so introducing yourself with confidence.

You just had a quick coaching session there. The three-point framework. It’s present. Past future. It’s not chronological. You start with, you anchor yourself with the present, who you are, and what you do. You establish credibility by talking about the past, and then you move to the future, and you talk about how enthusiastic you are about the future.

This is a foundational communication skill. I encourage you to try this framework if you haven’t already, as soon as possible, and it’ll become a life skill. The next time someone says, let’s go around the table or around the screen and introduce ourselves, you’ll probably do what I do and go, oh gosh. And then you’ll say, ah, I have a framework, and you’re gonna nail it. 

So there’s introducing yourself with confidence. There’s listening beyond. Just act passive to active. Let’s seek really collaborative listening where you believe that you have insights. The other person has insights, and if you listen carefully to together, you’re gonna come up with something amazing. So pushing your listening to be at a new level.

By the way, I always say this when I coach people on listening. You can’t be listening at this ultra high level all the time. It is exhausting. It’s really about self-awareness. So I’m in this training session right now with Andrea. I think I’m gonna be actively listening. I’m not gonna be this collaborative level.

I’m gonna be active later on. When you’re in a meeting, and it’s something that you already know everything about, you might slip into passive listening, which is where you’re kind of pretending to listen. Maybe you’re writing a few notes just to keep yourself awake. Being conscious of what level of listening you’re at, I think is actually a superpower.

Again, it’s about self-awareness and then formal presentation skills. The one thing I would say in terms of how to get better at formal presentation skills is practice. Just do it every chance. You get leading meetings, doing formal presentations, doing informal presentations. The more you do it, the easier it gets and the more fun it gets. 

I’m gonna say I have some horror stories that some of you, I know, some of you have heard, but I decided that was not acceptable, and so I started practicing, and now I do love it. I even have a podcast, so obviously I love formal presentations. Okay, so that’s the first way to establish your leadership presence is work.

And these are just three. I’m gonna give you three for each of the five, three ways. So, three ways to improve your foundational communication skills, introducing yourself effectively and boosting your listening formal presentation skills. Okay. The second way to establish leadership presence is to communicate with precision.

Now, I would say that precision counts as a foundational communication skill, but I, when I was pulling this together for us today, I wanted to pull this one out because of this very interesting insight. I think it’s interesting folks that are more junior in their career often come to me. Saying, Andrea, I have imposter syndrome, and I need some help speaking up.

It’s like they want to speak more. And then the more senior and successful folks that I coach actually say the opposite. They’re like, Andrea, I ramble sometimes, and I need you to help me communicate with precision. I wanna speak less, but with more impact. So I have this pair of scissors here. This is about brevity, so taking up less airtime.

And clarity, so making sure that you are really clear. So I of course have three suggestions for how you can do that. The first one that I always say, when people come to me seeking precision in their communication, this is the most important thing you can do. Speak in headlines. Use headlines. What does that mean?

That means when you send an email, sure. Your first sentence might be, I hope you had a great weekend, but your second sentence should be, the purpose of this email is, or I’m sending you this recommendation and the, you know, the accompanying evidence or whatever it is, like you tell them what you’re going to tell them.

I recently came up with this kind of saying that I have to explain this, which is if you’re writing a screenplay or you’re writing a novel, suspense is great, but suspense is not an effective strategy in business. Do not rely on suspense. Instead, tell them what you’re gonna tell them right away. So speak in headlines.

The second thing here is the power of three. If you know me, if you’ve listened to my podcast, if you’ve seen my posts on LinkedIn, if you know me at all, you know that I’m a huge fan of the power of three. I even have three kids and the power of three is actually grounded in science. So three is, I hope your default whenever you’re wondering how many, why?

Because three is balanced. Think about a tripod, right? You need three legs or a stool with three legs. It’s balanced. Three is enough that it sounds like a trend. So it’s substantial or substantive, but it’s not overwhelming. And three is easily memorized. It’s memorable or easy to recall. Remember, in the self-introduction framework, it’s three steps, not an accident.

Whenever I ask myself, how many, whatever should I include, I always say three. And if three is not enough, make it three groups of three. So I’m writing a book right now about some of the material that you’re hearing today, and I have three parts: part one, part two, and part three. And each of them has three chapters.

So use the power of three. This will help you in communicating with precision because you’ll tell people with your headline, here’s my recommendation, and then you’ll say, there are many reasons why this is the right way to go. Why? This is my recommendation. I’m gonna share with you three reasons as soon as you tell them that you’re anchoring the people that are listening in.

Basically, how long you’re gonna talk. And then you say, the first thing is blah, blah, blah. The second thing is the blah, blah, blah. And imagine if you hadn’t told them that you were going to use the power of three, and you just started listing things. After two people start to go, how much longer is she gonna keep talking?

Right? So tell people it’s the power of three. Follow the power of three, and then you can restate what the three things are. Okay. The last way that I’m gonna suggest that you communicate with precision is what I call tracking the ratio. So what do I mean by this? I mean tracking the ratio of the airtime that you’re taking up in a meeting.

So far, I’ve taken up 100% of the airtime, not including the chat, thankfully, in this meeting, but typically, if you were in a meeting with three other people, so there’s four of you, I encourage you, no matter what level you’re at, to say what would be my fair share of the airtime? It would be 25% if there’s four of us.

And then say, typically, do I speak too much or not enough? If you don’t speak enough, try to take up 25% of the airtime. If you’re the leader, you should probably be speaking less, so you should say, I wanna keep it down. And also, this is really important. If you are a leader and you are demonstrating leadership presence, you are tracking the ratio of everyone in the meeting that you’re leading.

And if someone’s not speaking up. You can very gracefully encourage them to do so by saying something like, Jane, I noticed you haven’t said anything yet, and I also know that you have a great expertise and background in whatever the area is. I’d be really interested to hear what you have to say, and then just go quiet, and the person will feel flattered because you authentically flattered them about their expertise, and they’ll pipe in.

So track the ratio, whether you speak not enough or too much, and if you’re a leader, track the ratio of everyone in the room and make sure that all of the people in the room are meeting participants, not just meeting attendees, right? If someone’s sitting there and they’re not saying a word and you really don’t need them to say a word, then I say they shouldn’t even be in the meeting anyway.

You can send them the minutes later, right? Okay. So that’s the second of five ways to establish leadership presence. The third is communicating with confidence. So. Remember, in my definition of leadership presence, it’s establishing credibility so you can create an impact. How do you establish credibility?

A big factor in driving credibility is your confidence. It’s how you feel and how other people are perceiving you. So I like to think of confidence really, and this is how I always talk about a confidence in terms of three things, imposter syndrome, confidence boosting tactics. Then mindset. So the first thing I say here is lean into imposter syndrome.

There’s so much research about imposter syndrome and the thing that may surprise all of you is even in the original research, this term was coined based on research on successful people. Successful people feel imposter syndrome. So lean into it. And furthermore, if you’re not feeling imposter syndrome, one of two things is probably true.

Either you’re arrogant. You’re done learning. And probably not. There aren’t that many arrogant people, so I’m gonna say, or more likely, you’re not pushing yourself. So I get a lot of calls from folks who have just got a big promotion and then their confidence plummets, and they’re like, Andrea, I need help.

I don’t know why, but I’m feeling this imposter syndrome. And then they tell me that they just got this big promotion into a different area. And I say. Your imposter syndrome is because you’re pushing yourself to learn new things. You should celebrate that. So lean into imposter syndrome instead of that.

When you feel that icky feeling, I feel it in my chest, like adrenaline, right? I feel like someone kind of punched me in the chest instead. And when I feel that instead of thinking, oh gosh, I have imposter syndrome and letting myself go into a downward spiral, I say. You know what? That’s the spark of positive energy that I need to shine in this workshop that I’m coaching right now.

And successful people put themselves in situations where there are high stakes. So, imposter syndrome is a good thing. Then the next two are the tactics and mindsets that different things work for different people. But the one thing you need to know as you’re experimenting with different ways of improving your confidence is that confidence can be learned.

Trust me, I have epically failed in the confidence department and been able to build my confidence based on using some of these tactics. So in terms of tactics, I would say things like being expansive. I’m holding my arms out here, being expansive, confident people take up space. So whether you’re seated around the boardroom table or standing in front of a room, remind yourself that confident people take up space.

And the two illustrations of that kind of prove this one is think about Trump. I’m not gonna get political here, but think about pictures of Trump in the Oval Office, right? He’s manspreading. I see photos all the time. He’s got his arms out, he’s got his legs out. He is taking up space. Now, I don’t know that he’s doing it on purpose, but he’s showing that he is confident and credible in that room.

So that’s one example. And the other example that I think of is remember when you were back in college or high school, and the teacher would ask a question, and then they’d turn around and look. And if you didn’t know what the answer was, you’d try to make yourself really small. Right? We kind of hide versus if you knew the answer, you’d be like, oh, oh.

At least some people would, right? So those are great examples of how we make ourselves small when we don’t wanna be seen, and how we make ourselves expansive. So the tactic of making yourself expansive is a big one. Slowing down your breathing is such a simple and hugely effective way of boosting your confidence.

I’ve read this research in detail, and here’s the insight. If you slow your exhale in particular, your brain says. Hang on a second. I’m not gasping for air. Everything must be okay. And then your blood chemistry will actually change. Your stress hormones will stop being produced, and you’ll feel less stressed out.

So if you’re up on stage and you feel this shot of adrenaline, it’s not like you’re gonna be heavy breathing into the microphone. However, you can quietly slow your exhale knowing that that will boost your confidence. And then there are confidence-boosting mindsets. Things like really focusing on learning.

If you are, so I’m not talking about this, I’m gonna say it. Stupid advice that we often hear, like there’s no such thing as failure. Only learning. Come on, you can fail. But if you are genuinely, authentically focused on learning all the time, especially in these high-stakes contexts, you really can’t fail.

In fact, the story of your epic failure, like the one of me failing when I was on stage, can become part of your story and catapult you into future success. So one of the mindsets that I encourage people is really think about a growth mindset. Really learning into that, leaning into that lifelong learning mindset.

And another mindset that I know works really well is focusing on your personal brand. Your unique strengths focusing on your superpowers. So in the research on social psychology, they talk about global self-esteem. So generally, how confident are you? And then they talk about domain-specific self-esteem.

So my question for you is, and you might wanna write this down right now, in what areas do I feel confident? Where do I know I have skills, expertise, and passion that adds value in my organization or in my career? If you focus on these things, your confidence will be elevated, and the research shows that when you focus on your domain-specific expertise, your self-esteem in those areas goes up, and then your global self-esteem also goes up.

So, I mean, this is a lot of social psychology talk for. Focusing on your superpowers before you go out on stage, remind yourself of what you’re good at. So I remember many years ago, for the first time, I was getting in front of a room with hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people, and I really didn’t, it was an open q and a.

I didn’t really know what was gonna happen, and I was nervous about the open q and a in particular. And I said to myself, Andrea. You have academic credentials in branding and marketing. You’ve spent your career in branding and marketing. You’ve coached all these people, you’ve done these workshops.

You don’t know everything, but you are an expert in personal branding. So anything that they ask you, either you’re gonna have an answer for, or it’s gonna be something that you should learn anyway. Right? And then I went out there. So remind yourself of what your unique superpowers are. That’s a very powerful, uh, mindset.

Okay. Moving on to the fourth way to establish leadership presence is exactly what I was just talking about. It’s developing your personal brand. So there are several things that you can do. If you follow me, you know that I’m talking about this all the time. Why? People tell me that this work is some of the most impactful work that they’ve done in elevating their confidence and also in developing their career.

So, as I said at the beginning, your self-introduction is the most direct way that you have to reinforce your personal brand. I cannot overstate how important it is to be comfortable and confident in your self-introduction, focusing on your unique strengths, like I just said. My saying here is unique is better than better.

Instead of trying to figure out what everyone in your organization or in an industry is expecting you to do or to call your strengths, ask yourself what your unique strengths are. Unique is better than better. The people around you who are knocking it out of the park. Undoubtedly are focused on their unique strengths.

Okay? And then once you’ve identified what those unique strengths are, then you shift to communication. This is where in person and virtually, so like in your LinkedIn profile or whatever social media you’re on, in your email signature. When you are in virtual meetings like we’re in right now, so in person and virtually, and then.

Explicitly, so using words and also implicitly how you show up the whatever you have in your background. It’s no mistake that I have the corner of my university degree over here. I have some plants. I have my color-coded bookshelf. I have more books here, not an accident. I’m trying to reinforce my brand.

Okay, so consistently reinforcing the unique strengths. There’s so much more that I could share with you about personal branding, and I’m happy to answer more about that in the q and a, but that’s the fourth way to establish leadership presence. And now we’re on to the last one, which is demonstrating leadership.

So I don’t mean exactly demonstrating leadership presence. There are slightly different things. I mean, demonstrating leadership, and I use these words because these are the words that my clients tell me. They meet me for a consult, and they say, Andrea. My boss says that technically I have the skills and I’m ready to be promoted and I need to start demonstrating leadership.

Those are like the exact words that I hear a lot, and this could be like from a junior position to a middle position, middle to senior, it happens at all levels. I need to demonstrate leadership, and again, this could come across as like vague coded feedback. And many people also say, especially if they’re earlier in their career, they’re like, it’s impossible for me to demonstrate leadership because I’m not the boss of anyone, or I’m only the boss of four people, and they want me to demonstrate that I can manage a group of 25 or more.

How am I supposed to do that? So here’s what I remind you. Is that there are many, many ways that you can demonstrate leadership. So the obvious one is leading people, and if you don’t have a team that’s reporting to you, you can still informally mentor other people and you could even formally coach people by setting up training programs or whatever.

So, yes. People. Leadership is a big part of demonstrating leadership, but there’s also a couple of other things here. I have proactive leadership, strategic leadership, and thought leadership. So pro what is pro, what do I mean by proactive? Well, leaders lead, right? We’re not talking about following, we’re talking about leading.

So when was the last time you had a proactive thought. I’m guessing it happens all the time. Shared it with the group and did something about it. I’m talking about being super proactive. Leaders lead. When you do that, you are demonstrating leadership, right? Strategic leadership. So I often think about, I used to work at Kraft Foods and Marketing, and I remember sometimes I’d be in these big meetings where we were brainstorming something or trying to decide on advertising campaign, which campaign we were gonna go with.

Something like that. Somewhat things would, the conversation would go off track, and then after a certain amount of time, some very smart person who I would say was demonstrating leadership would raise their hand and say, we’re going off track. Let’s shift back to focusing on our strategy. Remember the brand strategy?

Whatever it was, let’s focus on what our priorities are instead of getting distracted. And I remember whenever someone said something like that, I’d always think, gosh, that person is so smart. What a great leader. So when you’re presenting your thoughts and when you’re in discussions with others, when.

Encouraging focus and being sort of principled, like what is the brand strategy? What have we decided the core principles or ideas are that we’re gonna be pursuing this year? Being grounded in your firm’s objectives, whatever they label them will help people, will encourage people to think of you as a leader, and then this one is often forgotten.

Thought leadership. So, is there something that you have expertise on? It could be something technical, it could be a leadership style. It could be something that’s related to your industry or your function where you can share either in person, like verbally, or in writing. You could write papers, or you could post it on LinkedIn.

Right? Thought leadership. Private and public. Thought leadership is definitely, I mean, that’s what it’s called. Thought. Leadership. The point here is demonstrating leadership beyond people. Leadership, proactively being strategic, and using thought leadership. Okay, so. Here is the list of five ways. I mean, there are many more, but these are five ways that I would say are very common gaps that people can get a lot of traction in your foundational communication skills.

Like I said, communicating with precision, boosting your confidence, developing your brand, and demonstrating leadership 

Choosing Your Focus: Don’t Try to Do All Five

So this list may seem overwhelming. Again, what I encourage you to do is to identify which one or two, I think more than two is probably too many. Identify which one or two you wanna commit to yourself that you’re gonna focus on.

I think of these in terms of what I call the leadership presence framework. So I shared a little bit of this with you in one of the earlier slides. Impact is at the top, right? This is your goal, and it again, it could be big or small. How are you gonna get there? By establishing credibility on the first two steps.

This is what I notice when I’m coaching people. We work on their foundational communication skills, and they tell me, Andrea. By working on my self-introduction, by working on my listening, by working on my formal presentation skills, and on and on, I feel my confidence boosted, right? And then when their confidence is boosted, this feeling that they have other people tell them like, what’s going on with you?

Like all of a sudden, you have this credible presence in meetings, and then that’s when they can make an impact. This is the framework that I encourage you to, you’re welcome to take a screenshot if you like. I encourage you to think about this. And then I, I have these kind of rectangle, whatever the, are those trapezoids, whatever the shape is called, I need to figure that out.

You can put all sorts of communication skills there. And then the interesting part here, I think, is that you can build confidence by improving your foundational communication skills, but you can also do it. By overcoming imposter syndrome and also by using the confidence-boosting mindsets and tactics that I shared, and more.

And then when that happens, your credibility’s boosted. And when your credibility gets boosted, then you can make an impact. But you can also, in a focused way, improve your credibility by thinking about the different ways of demonstrating leadership. By developing your personal brand and by doing all sorts of things.

By the way, Sylvia Ann Hewlett’s definition, remember the third part? It was gravitas, communication, and how you show up. The, how you show up belongs right there in the credibility, right? Like, do you look like a leader? So this is a framework that you can probably tell by my tone of voice I am so excited about because I think it gives people a framework where I know it does, because I’ve, I’ve been using it in, in my private coaching and, uh, workshops.

It gives people, I guess, like a framework for them to think about where there may be some gaps for them, where they can get some traction and start to develop this leadership presence. So I’m excited to share with you that next month, starting in the third week of April, I have an executive presence and personal branding masterclass.

Now I’m calling it executive presence because that’s the term that people are mostly using, but in this masterclass, it’s six weeks long. We are gonna talk about the framework, how it’s leadership presence, and we’re gonna work our way up. Up the framework. So I’m just gonna share two slides with you about this, and then I’m gonna open it up for q and a.

If you wanna learn more, if you go to TalkAboutTalk.com/april2026, there’s detailed information about what’s included and everything, but here’s what you get. There are six live coaching sessions on Wednesdays starting at noon. You also will be included in a private virtual group where only the masterclass folks will be there.

The group will probably be. 10 to 15 folks or so. So it’s enough that there’s gonna be people there that you’re gonna learn from and make some fantastic connections. But there’s also a lot of individual customized one-on-one coaching. So we have this virtual private group. I’m in the group as well, and asking questions and answering questions there.

So that’s on 24/7. For the six weeks, you also get a comprehensive workbook that basically becomes your playbook for developing. Leadership presence or executive presence, and your personal brand, and you also get access to a recently re-released and hugely improved online course on personal branding. So the content that I had from the course that I introduced four or five years ago was great, but the production value wasn’t, and we recently improved the production value of that.

So that’s the program that I’m excited about. 

Wrap-Up & Live Q&A: Applying Leadership Presence in the Real World

But now I would love to answer any questions that you have. So, questions about executive presence, about leadership presence, about the five ways that I shared with you, shared that I encourage you to improve your leadership presence. Any questions about the masterclass as well?

I’m happy to answer. 

Christie: I can ask you a quick question, I guess. 

AW: Hello? Is it Hey, Christie?

C: It’s Christie. Yeah, 

AW: I, how did I know that? 

C: Because we’ve chatted briefly before. 

AW: Yeah. Nice to see you, Christie. 

C: Nice to see you. Are those situations where you’re doing a presentation, and you’re showing up in executive presence, do you have like awardrobe guide or do you have like go-to places or is it just like suit navy? Like how, how deep do you go on that? Because it does impact perception, right? 

AW: It does. I’m glad you asked. Okay, so, oh gosh. There’s, there’s actually so many things that I can say. If one thing that a lot of people don’t know, if you are virtual, go with solids, not prints because they pixelate and they can be distracting.

So that’s one thing. So I have a photographer that I absolutely love. So she’s taken all the photos that are in my social media posts and on my website, and I brought like my favorite turquoise and white hounds tooth blazer. And she was like. I was like, it’s my favorite. It’s my signature blazer. She said, no, no, it, it’s gonna be pixelated.

That’s not what you want. She said, you can wear it when you meet someone for lunch or if you’re in front of a group, but don’t wear it for photos or anything that’s online. That’s a big one. The other thing that I can tell you is if you don’t have any idea what to wear, no. That blue is most people’s favorite color.

Or how do you, how do you say that? Right? Blue is the color more than other that people favor. Right? 

C: So that was a tongue twister. Yeah. 

AW: Blues. Blue’s a good one. I would say that the other thing that comes up a lot is formality, and I just wrote a LinkedIn newsletter on this and I say, I encourage you to dress up.

And by up I do not mean more formally. I mean, look at the people. Who are up from you, who are above you, who to whom you aspire to their position, how are they dressing? And you wanna be yourself, of course, but think about what they’re wearing. I’ve started to wear like a turquoise blazer with a t-shirt and jeans or pants with really cool Adidas running shoes. I have turquoise run. I have two pairs of turquoise running shoes. Um, so you can actually have fun, and I get comments on ’em like, oh my God, love your shoes. Right? So I’ve just started doing that. You don’t have to dress up formally, but dress up like the people that you admire.

And then in terms of being in front of people, Christie, I would say the most important thing truly is that you feel comfortable and elevated. So comfortable. Like, you know, if you have a like I have a blazer, actually it’s on the couch that I’m pointing to it over there in my room. It’s like a bit tight in my shoulders.

Like I would never wear it if I was standing in front of a room because if I, as soon as I point up, it’s gonna be like pulling. So you wanna be like comfortable, but you also wanna feel elevated. Like, if it’s a big deal, you wanna show up in a way that you feel good. The old saying, when you look good, you feel good.

When you feel good, you look good, and then you do good. Like, that’s the idea. Do you have any other specific questions, Christie, about that? 

C: I totally agree on the, the being comfortable. I do think it shows up, and I do agree because I’m an on the marketing side of things. So we do that from a brand and thought leadership perspective, so that’s great.

And context matters, right? Like dressing up in who you’re in front of and who you’re talking to. I don’t know. I think it would also like, I like that. Like make it your own. 

AW: Yeah. 

Christie: Because if you’re not authentic, I guess that must show too, right? 

AW: Yeah. Yeah. So I encourage you all to think about what your thing is for how you show up.

So it could, for me, it’s a color, but that doesn’t mean it has to be a I, by the way, I met a woman at a conference and she, she had an orange jacket, an orange person. I said, oh, I love your orange. She said, I wear orange all the time. It’s like my go-to, no one wears orange, so I, it makes me memorable. And I was like, good for you.

Uh, so it could be a color, it could be that you always wear a great scarf or you’re really into, even, even today, ties maybe not done up all the way. I, I know some guys that it could be. Your socks, or you could really be into shoes or may, a lot of people are really into running shoes. Right? And by the way, it can change over time too.

It’s not like you’re, I say turquoise, so it has, for me, I always loved turquoise. I used to be a figure skater, and I, I, my dresses were always turquoise, everything. My houses turquoise. But for most people, it’ll evolve over time. Pick a thing. I remember, I used to be on a board of a hospital, and one of the guys on the board, he was known as having great hair and.

Really crisp white shirts like, like they all looked brand new, right? That was like his thing. It said a lot. It said a lot. He was, he also worked in quality control, and I was like, okay, he’s got the hair, and he’s got the shirt. Right? So, is there a way you can reinforce your brand by how you show up in terms of how you dress?

Try and think about what your thing might be. Your thing might even be your stature, right? Like I’m super, not me, but someone’s like super tall or I know some people that are. Are like five feet tall and they create a narrative around themselves as like, you’ll know me when you see me. I’m like a big ball of energy, but I’m tiny in stature.

And I’ll be like, okay. And then it’s like, oh, there she is. Right? So that is included as part of how you show up. Anyone else have any questions they wanna ask me out loud? 

Heather: Hi, I have a question. My name is Heather. I’m looking for the raise hand emoji, but I can’t find it on the screen. So my question is, once you have communicated and you have introduced yourself appropriately, what about the dead air?

Like, the small talk? I mean, you mentioned at the beginning, like I, I’m not sure, maybe that’s another podcast or another area, but. What do you talk about in this day and age and in this situation where geopolitical, you know, fever is at an all-time high. What can you actually talk about? It used the weather used to be safe, and now with climate change, that’s not safe.

AW: Yeah, that’s true. 

H: What, what do you talk about? 

AW: It’s such a cliche, isn’t it, to talk about the weather, but the weather is often newsworthy these days. I am not a big fan of these kind of rehearsed. Small talk prompts like, so what have you done lately that really lit up your world? Or you know, tell me about the best place you visited in the last year. I, I think asking those kind of random questions that you could ask anyone is, it seems a bit trite to me and, I know I appreciate it when people are doing it because they’re trying to fill the conversation void. But instead, I would look at the person and. Ask them something about the here and now.

Like literally, if you’re at a conference and you meet someone, you could say, what’s your connection to the conference? Are you a speaker? Do you know the speaker? Are you a sponsor? What? Whatever. Right? So ask them about them. Ask them. So how did you get here? Did you take an Uber or did you drive? Right?

So, asking the person about them, and then the conversation will flow people. Love talking. I know you all know this. People love talking about themselves. So instead of asking these kind of generic questions, I would think like, what is context and person relevant? And then ask ’em a question based on that, like here and now with this person. I hope that helps. 

H: Yeah, thank you. 

AW: Yeah. Who else has a question? 

Lally: Andrea. Hi. I have a question. 

AW: Hello. 

L: I work with people all around the world, obviously mostly remotely. What considerations should I have or anyone in this obviously room have when it comes to establishing executive presence or leadership presence when you’re working with other cultures?

AW: Yeah. This is something that I’ve started to think about more and more, and I’m gonna say this is not my expertise. I. Think it takes beautiful empathy and self-awareness to know what your culture, it could be like your country or even your corporate or your industry industries have culture, right?

Companies have culture. Countries have cultures. Religions have cultures. So ask yourself, what cultures am I a part of, and what are we known for, right? So if you are from, I’m gonna say Texas versus. Montana, right? There are differences in how people communicate, and so just being aware of that, and you could even call it out.

You could say, I know not everybody is, so I’m from Canada, and I’m a female, so people would assume that I am soft spoken. I’m not. So I could comment on that. I could make that like I’m probably not a typical female Canadian. I’m a little bit more outgoing. I’m definitely an extrovert. Right. And then you’re like, so you’re acknowledging differences.

The big thing, Lally, that I would say is especially when you know there are distinctions in culture, again, whether it’s a corporate culture or a country culture, whatever it is, industry culture, being explicit about it and sharing that you are open and that you respect other perspectives can go a long way.

And even when you do that. You can mess up. I have messed up, right? People will say, well, you’re teaching this and that. That doesn’t really work in my company culture, whatever. Or you said this, and that’s offensive. I was in New Mexico about a month and a half ago, and I whistled like I do this all the time when I’m in work.

I did this when I was in the MBA program teaching in the MBA program, and when I do live workshops after people are in breakout groups, I will whistle, and I did it twice and the second time I did it, this guy in the front row. Had tears rolling down his face and he was like extremely sensitive to sound.

And then I obviously, I saw what was going on, so I didn’t whistle anymore. And then I went up to him and he said, I know you didn’t do that on purpose, but please. And I said, I am so, so sorry. Like, I violated something for him that was like physically he couldn’t handle it. So it’s a little bit different from culture, but my point is, if you mess up address it and you don’t need to dwell on it, right? Like, you don’t need to call the person out. Don’t dwell on it, but apologize and make sure that you’re course correcting. 

L: Thank you very much. 

AW: Yeah, 

L: This is very helpful. 

AW: Michelle Brown asked for any more tips on how to effectively introduce yourself? So I’m gonna say.

This three-point framework, which I, I believe is in the chat. It’s also if you go to the Talk About Talk podcast, whether you’re in, uh, YouTube or Spotify or Apple Podcasts, if you scroll down, I have rereleased the episode on how to introduce yourself. Many times it’s always a top episode for downloads.

Learning this self-introduction framework is actually a life skill beyond the, let’s go around the table, or around the room or around the screen and introduce ourselves. You can use this framework anytime. Someone says, tell me about yourself. Imagine you walk into a job interview, and the first question is, maybe you’re just meeting with a, it’s a preliminary meeting with a recruiter.

Tell me about yourself. You’re like, oh boy, like where do I start? And then just use the framework. Okay. You can also use this framework, present past, future in your LinkedIn profile, in your About section. Your about section should be written in first person. My name is Andrea. I, you don’t have to say your name, but you could say, I am an executive communication coach.

I am a, whatever your title is at organization, where I, my leadership style is so you’re present, present, present, and then you can shift to the past. Before I held this position, I worked, whatever. You don’t wanna necessarily, this is a tip by the way. I would say it’s not a mistake, but it is a missed opportunity.

When you’re talking about your past, be it in your about section or be it in your self-introduction, if even if someone asks you about your career journey, you don’t have to default to chronology. The number of times people say, when I say to them, I used to, in my podcast, I used to say, why don’t you, why don’t we start by you introducing yourself to the audience?

And then they’d be like, well, I graduated from university in 1997, and then my first role. And I’m like, oh boy, here we go. Right? Like, sorry, I didn’t ask you for your Epic bio. So instead, think about. Two or three things that are relevant, right? So my passion and my expertise is this thing, and I used it when I had this role, and I had this role, and this is what I learned, and my leadership style is blah, blah, blah.

And that leadership style was cultivated from years of doing this and this, right? So don’t necessarily default to chronology again. It’s not that it’s a mistake. Our brains, they kind of default to chronology right in your self-introduction. Instead, think about what are your unique strengths that you wanna share, and then tell the story about the past to reinforce those things.

I hope that helps. Okay. Um, do, oh, Magdalena. Your question is so timely. She says, do these principles also apply outside of corporate IE if you are a business owner? So I used to talk about coaching executives. All the time, right? Yes. I’m an executive communication coach. I’ve recently started to change to say, professionals and leaders.

You’ll probably hear those words coming outta my mouth more often. These skills apply whether you are an entrepreneur, whether you are working in healthcare like you’re a physician or a hospital administrator. These people that I coach, actually a lot of healthcare leaders, and they will say to me, I don’t consider myself an executive, but I see the stuff that you’re coaching people on, and that’s what I need to advance my career.

So it’s, yes, the answer is yes, it is absolutely relevant, and it will help you Magdalena, establish credibility with your staff, with your partners that you have. I’m sure you have partners that you’re collaborating with, and with your clients or your customers as well. So the answer is a big fat yes on that one.

Um, Cesar or Cesar, I’m not sure how you say your name. Leadership is influence. Nothing more, nothing less. John Maxwell. Love it. And to have the influence, you have to have credibility. So I’m just gonna say thank you so much for being so active in the chat and here with your questions. I’ve really enjoyed it, as you can probably tell.

And if you wanna connect with me, my email, I’m gonna give you my email. It’s [email protected]. If you aren’t already connected with me on LinkedIn, please do. I’m on LinkedIn almost every day. I actually love it. I just went on vacation. I forced myself not to look at LinkedIn for a whole week. It was really hard.

You can find me on LinkedIn again. You can find out more about what I do at TalkAboutTalk.com. And if you’re interested in the masterclass, it’s TalkAboutTalk.com/april2026. So I tried to make it as easy as possible for you. I would love to hear from you and you can connect with me in any of those ways, and I hope you have a great rest of your week.

Bye.

The post Executive Presence LIVE TRAINING: 5 Ways to Boost Your Leadership Presence” (ep. 210) appeared first on Talk About Talk.

Ever led a meeting where no one seemed engaged? Don’t blame your agenda or your slides. Fix your opener!

In this Talk About Talk episode, Dr. Andrea Wojnicki shares three specific techniques you can use to open any meeting in a way that gets people engaged immediately and keeps their attention the whole time. No extra storytelling required.

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TRANSCRIPTION

Certainly not all meetings go as planned, do they? But you’ve probably led a few of these successful meetings, the kind where people are locked in, ideas are flying around. The kind of meeting where you walk out, impressed, feeling proud, and like you actually got something done. And then you try to run the exact same meeting two weeks later, and it’s crickets. 

Here’s what I figured out. After years of leading live workshops and coaching executives on communication, the difference almost always traces back to the first one to two minutes of the meeting. It’s not the agenda, it’s not the slides, it’s the opening. So today. I’m gonna share with you three specific things that you can do to start off any meeting in a way that gets people engaged immediately and then keeps them that way. Let’s do this. Let’s Talk About Talk. 

Welcome to the Talk About Talk podcast. My name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki. Please just call me Andrea. I’m your executive communication coach. I coach ambitious professionals like you to communicate with confidence and credibility so that you can achieve your career goals.

Please check out our website, TalkAboutTalk.com. You’ll find more information there about the topics that we cover and the different ways that you can learn from workshops, keynotes to masterclasses, to online courses, and more. There are plenty of free resources for you there, too, so check them all out. It’s at TalkAboutTalk.com.

The First Two Minutes Set the Tone

Here’s what most of the leaders that I coach tell me: they say, Andrea, I don’t know why some of my meetings just work, and others totally fall flat, and I can’t figure out how to make the good ones. Happen on purpose. Does this sound familiar? What’s interesting is that it’s almost never a content problem.

The agenda is probably more than fine. The people in the room are capable, but something about the energy at the start of the meeting sets the whole tone. If you’ve lost people in the first couple of minutes, you are fighting an uphill battle until the end. Now, if you do an online search or ask AI, how should I start my meeting?

You’ll see the same advice recycled everywhere. Tell a story. Get people emotionally invested. And here’s the thing, I’m not gonna tell you that stories don’t work because they certainly do. If you’ve ever tried to shoehorn a story into the top of a project status meeting and then watched people check their phones, then you know that a forced story can somehow be worse than no story at all.

So instead, I wanna give you three things that actually work every time, regardless of the type of meeting, the size of the room, or whether you consider yourself a natural storyteller or not. 

Tell Them Where the Bus Is Going

Technique number one. Tell everyone where the bus is going. Here’s my question for you. Would you get on a bus if you had no idea where it was headed?

Obviously not, right, but that’s exactly what many meeting leaders do. They ask people to get on the bus without telling them where it’s headed. They send a calendar invite with a vague title. They kick off with, okay, let’s get started, and then they wonder why people seem checked out. Your team is sitting there doing a mental calculation in the first 30 seconds.

Is this worth my time? I mean, I have to sit here, but is it in my best interest to pay attention and to participate? Or maybe I should pretend to listen while I check my email? Is it worth my time and attention? And here’s the thing, if you don’t answer that question for them, their brain answers it for them, usually with probably not.

The fix here is simple. Before you get into any content, spend 60 seconds telling them exactly why this meeting is worth their attention. Not just the topic, not even just the meeting objective. I’m talking about the stakes. What is at stake here? Why it matters to the people around the table. And by the way, if it doesn’t matter to them, why did you invite them?

So, what decision are you gonna make in this meeting? What problem are you solving today that we haven’t been able to solve asynchronously? What will they walk out knowing or being able to do that they couldn’t do before the meeting started? You really need to clarify this. I actually use this exact tactic every time I record a podcast episode.

Before I get into any content, I tell you the listener specifically what you’re going to get, what you’re gonna learn. So before your next meeting, write down this sentence. By the end of this meeting, you will? What? If you can’t fill in that blank, clearly your agenda needs work before your opening does.

Okay. So that’s the first technique. Tell your meeting participants where the bus is headed and why they need to get on the bus. 

Encourage the Nod: Create Instant Alignment

The second technique is what I call encouraging the nod. I want you to think about the last time you were listening to someone. It could be a speaker, maybe it was a presentation, maybe a podcast like you’re listening to right now, and you found yourself nodding along.

Like, yeah, that’s exactly right. That’s my experience, or that’s what I want. That nod is not accidental. The best communicators design for it. And you can do the same thing at the top of your meeting. Open your meeting with one or two statements that name your attendees, shared reality, something like, I know we’ve all been in meetings all week, and I wanna make sure this one earns a spot on your calendar.

This is well worth your time, or you could be more specific. I heard from a few of you that this decision we need to make has been making you feel stuck, and that is exactly what we’re gonna fix here today. Suddenly, you see people nodding their heads, and when you name people’s actual experience, especially if you name a pain point, they lean in, and they nod.

And a nodding person is an engaged person. The science backs this up. Research on rapport and engagement shows that physical agreement cues like nodding your head actually increase your sense of alignment with a speaker. It’s like our brains believe our bodies, just like our bodies believe our brains.

As the meeting leader, you might also nod to yourself and encourage the meeting participants to mirror you. You’re not manipulating anyone here. You’re just meeting them where they already are and calling it out. So here’s what I encourage you to do. Write out two sentences for your next meeting opener that describe your participants’ feeling a pain point, an experience, or something that they’re seeking.

Test it by yourself. Will this encourage nodding? If not, try again. If so, you nailed it. Okay. Now we’ve covered two techniques to maximize engagement in your meetings. One, tell them where the bus is headed. Two, encourage the nod.

Get Them Talking Early—and Keep Them Engaged

Now, for technique number three, get them talking early. I would say this is one of the most powerful of all the techniques.

There is a huge opportunity for you here. Here’s the principle. The earlier someone participates in a meeting, the more engaged they will be for the entire meeting. And this isn’t just my intuition; this is backed by research on group dynamics. I like to think of it as creating momentum or encouraging momentum.

When people contribute early, they develop a sense of ownership over what’s happening in the meeting. They’ve got momentum. Staying engaged stops feeling like a chore and starts to feel like following through on something that you’ve already started. And lemme tell you something, I’ve tested this purposefully in my workshops.

Same material, similar audience. When I encourage engagement early, the workshop is always more successful in large part because people stay engaged. I encourage you to do the same thing in the meetings that you lead. Get as many people as possible talking or somehow engaging in the first five minutes.

There are a few different ways that you can do this, depending on the context who’s sitting around the table, the number of meeting participants, and so on. You could kick off your meeting with a quick round of self-introductions, or you could ask everyone to answer a question with a hand gesture, like a thumbs up, a thumbs down, or a count.

Like, tell me, is it one or two or five or 10? You get the idea. If you’re virtual, you could drop a one-question poll into the chat. I find that much easier than creating breakout groups, but often breakout groups work really well. It’s a great way to get people brainstorming and talking, whether you’re virtual or in person. You could run a short breakout where pairs have to answer a question like, what would make this meeting a success for you?

Or what’s the most important thing that we need to consider to make the decision that we’re gonna make in this meeting? You get the idea. It does not need to be elaborate. It just needs to happen before people have had too long to settle into passive observer mode. Because here’s the thing, silence in a meeting is sticky.

The momentum works both ways. Once you’ve been quiet for 10 minutes, asking them to speak up feels like a big, big ask. But if they’ve already participated and spoken, that barrier’s gone, momentum kicks in. So look at your next meeting agenda and identify the earliest possible opportunity where you can design a moment where participants actually participate.

A poll, a share, a show of hands. Put it in the first five minutes. It’s not negotiable. 

Your 3-Step Playbook for More Engaging Meetings

So let’s bring this all together. Now, the next time you are leading a meeting, before you go into the room, make sure you’ve answered these three questions.

1. Tell Them Where the Bus Is Going

Number one, have I told them where the bus is going? Do they know what we’re deciding, solving, or leaving with?

2. Encourage the Nod

Two, have I encouraged a nod? Have I named their reality in a way that makes them feel seen even before we start? 

3. Get Them Talking Early

And number three, have I built in early participation? Is there a way to get voices in the room in the first five minutes, maybe even in the first two minutes? 

These are three things together that make up probably an extra three minutes of preparation for you, but they’re gonna make a huge difference between a meeting where people are fully engaged versus one where they’re mentally halfway out the door, check in their email, essentially checked out.

And look, none of this requires you to be a charismatic storyteller or even an extroverted entertainer. This is about being intentional and tactical. In the first few minutes of your meeting, you got this, okay? Before you go. Whatever podcast platform you’re on, please don’t forget to hit subscribe. This way, you won’t lose out on getting even more coaching on your communication skills from me.

Thanks for listening and talk soon.

The post How to Lead ENGAGING MEETINGS Where People Actually Pay Attention (ep. 209) appeared first on Talk About Talk.

“Do not mistake my KINDNESS for WEAKNESS.” What does it take to go from working front cash at McDonald’s to becoming its CEO? Michèle Boudria, Board Director and Former CEO of McDonald’s Canada, spent four decades figuring it out, and in this episode, she’s sharing everything.

Michèle shares her insights, all in the name of creating “a virtuous cycle of high performance”: a relentless focus on feedback, next-level networking, curiosity, and an authentic, people-first leadership style. This one is full of honest, practical gold on building confidence, leading with impact, and getting the right people in your corner, and leading with impact.

DOWNLOAD THE LEADERSHIP PRESENCE FRAMEWORK NOW at: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/leadershippresence

Whether you’re early in your career or already in the C-suite, this one will make you think differently about the kind of leader you want to be.

CONNECT WITH ANDREA

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CONNECT WITH MICHÈLE 

🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michele-boudria/

🌐 Website: https://www.mcdonalds.com/ca/en-ca/newsroom/executive-team/Michele-Boudria.html

MICHÈLE’S BOOK RECOMMENDATION 

📖 Grit: The Power of Passion and Perseverance by Angela Duckworth → https://amzn.to/3ZAyjCg

TRANSCRIPTION

Michèle Boudria: Say, do not mistake my kindness for weakness, and that is really what I believe was that kind of unlock when I was 25 years old, was I realized that I could be kind and strong and confident and successful. 

Andrea Wojnicki: Welcome to the Talk About Talk podcast. I am so excited about this episode. A couple of months ago, I was speaking at a conference, and I met one of the other conference speakers who you are about to meet. 

From Front Counter to CEO: Lessons in Leadership and Communication

Her name is Michèle Boudria, and she’s the recently retired CEO of McDonald’s Canada. She started four decades ago working front cash at McDonald’s and worked her way up to CEO. She has an incredible story to share with you, and I have to say, other than hearing her speak at this conference, I really didn’t know anything about Michèle, and the way our conversation unfolded will provide you with some gold in improving your communication skills in terms of career advice, and I would say even life advice. Let’s do this. Let’s talk about talk. 

My name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki and I’m your executive communication coach. Here at Talk About Talk, I focus on coaching ambitious professionals like you to improve your communication skills.

So you can achieve all of your career goals. You can find more about what I do. If you go to talk about talk.com. On the website, you’ll find the archive of this podcast. You’ll find a free newsletter. You’ll find free resources. You’ll also find information about the private coaching, the masterclasses, and the corporate workshops and keynotes that I run.

About the Guest: Michèle Boudria, Former CEO of McDonald’s Canada

Okay. Let me introduce Michèle. Michèle Boudriaa’s journey with McDonald’s started when she was just 16 years old, working the counter of a restaurant in Elmer, Quebec. Four decades later, in 2025, she retired as president and CEO of McDonald’s Canada. Having led one of the country’s most iconic brands through remarkable growth and transformation, her journey included leadership roles across continents from frontline operations to the C-suite, where, as CEO, she oversaw more than 1400 restaurants, generating billions in annual sales. 

She made making franchisees successful, relentless pursuit of a consistently great customer experience, and known for her operational expertise and ability to deliver results in mature markets.

Michèle championed innovative pricing approaches, expanding digital channels that reached millions of more Canadians and data-driven insights to build success in the franchise network. Today, Michèle brings her decades of experience in growth strategy, operational excellence, franchise partnerships, and organizational transformation to her corporate board and community work.

Here’s Michèle. 

MB: At McDonald’s, it’s actually not that unique to have grown your entire career and started in our restaurants at the front cash or in the kitchen or drive through, or whatever it may be. We have quite a few colleagues around the world who have taken a similar path. You maybe don’t always make it to CEO, but you certainly take on some very important roles in the business.

The Three Drivers of Success: Grit, Curiosity, and a Personal Board of Directors

What I attribute my success to, it kind of boils down to three things for me. One is grit. I am a firm believer in this, the power of going after something and never stopping until you achieve it. Now, I certainly wasn’t thinking I’d be CEO when I started, but every task, every responsibility that I was given, I had to make sure that I was the best at it, that I achieved it to its full potential.

So I’d say that would be one of the first things. Curiosity was probably the other one. I know that I probably drove a lot of my bosses crazy. I had millions of questions all the time if I didn’t quite know how to do something. But I thought, you know, that looked kind of interesting to be responsible for that.

I’d ask a million questions to the point where they’d say, okay, you just take over and try it and see how well you do with it. And so curiosity to me was really, really important. I’d say the last was more around how do you surround yourself with the right people who are gonna give you. The good, the bad, and the ugly from a feedback perspective.

And so I call that my personal board of directors. And I have over the years had some really, really, really close partners who, some are still really good friends today and continue to be part of my personal board of directors, but many have come and gone. But I’m really grateful that I had those types of people around me who gave it to me. Like I said, good, bad, or ugly. 

AW: Oh, gosh. I have so many things I could say here. First of all, I love that you’re using the power of three. I mean, you could list one thing, or you could list 10 things, and you’re like, no, here are the three things. So grit, curiosity. People. So your personal board of directors.

I talk a lot on the Talk About Talk podcast about the power of a growth mindset, which I think is related to your second point, well actually, maybe to all of it, but mostly to your second point and curiosity. I’d love to dig into the third point ’cause I get a lot of questions about networking and how to create a high-quality network around you, especially ambitious folks like, like yourself, like most people that are listening here, this idea of a personal board of directors comes up in conversation. 

Can you talk a little bit about how that unfolded and if you have any advice for people on how to do the same?

MB: Yeah, I think it, how it unfolded is I actually attended this workshop, you know, for women in leadership roles at McDonald’s, and this woman kind of introduced the concept to us, and I was really. The idea of building that, and it was literally. It’s not an interview process where I interviewed folks, but I put down the names that I thought would fit the various roles and the various type of feedback I was gonna receive or need.

And to be perfectly frank, it has evolved over time because I might have been looking for different type of feedback, or if I didn’t interact with someone for a long time because our roles are so far apart, or our worlds were so far apart. At times, I would change up and get different folks to help out. You know, I firmly believe, you know, over the years I’ve had the pleasure of receiving this really rich feedback and sometimes it doesn’t feel like a pleasurable experience.

But I have been really lucky and I’ll, I’ll never, you know, forget, I was really, really young. I was 25 years old. I was leading a team of about a hundred people and I. I had around me a lot of really strong businessmen, and the behavior and the leadership style was very much one of, you know, ruling with a bit of an iron fist.

And so that’s what I thought was going to make me successful. And so, you know, at some point in, uh, my period as a, as leading this team. I received some pretty harsh feedback, you know, and people did not enjoy working with me. Well, the funny thing was, is I wasn’t really enjoying myself either, and so, you know, I really took that to heart.

I had reflected on it quite a bit, and I decided that. You know, I was the kind of person who really cared about people. I was the kind of leader who, or wanted to be the kind of leader that was kind to people, motivated people, and got people excited about vision and strategy, and really wanting to give their best self.

And I realized that doing that with an iron fist wasn’t working for me. And so I basically woke up one morning and said, that’s it. I am going to be who I am, the leader I want to be, and the style that I want. It works. And if it doesn’t, well maybe this just isn’t for me, and somewhere else it won’t work.

And many, many, many years later, I look back, and I think, thank goodness that. That leader that I worked with at the time had the courage to gimme that really harsh feedback, and I applaud my team at that time for also being honest and speaking out. And by the way, they didn’t tell me because they were afraid of me.

They told someone, and that was also very eye-opening. And so it has worked for me and I, you know, this is who I am, you know, I’m proud of it. It’s how I’ve led teams for all these years. And, um, you know, it’s the legacy that I’ve left at McDonald’s in my retirement is I’ve taught other leaders that you can be kind, you can, but still be confident and still be demanding and still achieve really great results. You just do it in a different way. 

AW: Wow. Okay. I wanna get into leadership style, but before we go there, I wanna go back and kind of close the loop on the networking. And you used the term feedback a lot. So it sounds like you were looking for mentorship and you mentioned the word roles. So as you were creating what eventually became your personal board of directors, what was your, I guess like tactical strategy?

What were you thinking like? Who do I need? Like what types of people, what role will they play? 

MB: Yep. And I think your boss always plays a role, you know? And that obviously will change with whomever you’re reporting into. So that was clear. The boss was one of those folks. And I would always kind of, my strategy for each one of these roles was to say, listen, here’s what I’m really ambitious.

I wanna achieve a lot, I have got lots of potential, and I wanna be able to pursue everything that I wanna pursue. I know I can’t unless I’m given really honest feedback. So this is me asking you and giving you permission to be very, very transparent and honest and timely with me when you see something.

And so I’m not sure that I necessarily accepted it exceptionally well every single time. Yeah. But I would go home, reflect, sleep on it, come back in the morning, and think, you know what? You know, that was good feedback. I just need to accept it. I’ve asked for it, now I must deal with it. There’s some folks that will play more of an ally role, right?

So that, that could be a peer, it could be someone who’s got some similar thoughts as mine. And so in a meeting, we might strategize a little bit so that we can deliver some strong messages together. I’d have obviously, uh, supporters and those supporters. They talk about you when you’re not in the room, and there are people who believe in what you believe in and wanna do, and they don’t necessarily have a direct connection to you, but they’re influential.

And they’re in the room, and they’re making a difference for your career in these conversations. And then of course, mentors. Mentors have always been part of my, uh, board of directors. And sometimes I’ve had more than one. Sometimes I have one that’s specific to a topic because this person is an expert at this, and I really wanna draw out as much as I can from that person on this particular topic.

AW: So when I read about kind of strategic networking, and by that I don’t mean being manipulative, I mean like, like thinking like you did about carefully in a disciplined way about the roles of different people in your network that are influencing your career. I hear about mentors, and also, there’s so much research about how a champion or an advocate can positively influence your career. 

The one thing that I heard you say, in addition to these two roles, is the power of allies. And I think many of us don’t. I mean, maybe we naturally might side with certain people, feel a connection with people, but I think that’s a really nice ad, right? It’s not just mentors. And it’s not just the champions, it’s also allies. 

MB: Yeah. And think about what that also does in the workforce. When you start to create an environment where you’re looking for allies in your workforce, the competitiveness is still there. A lot of these folks were my peers, but it becomes so healthy.

Because you play, you’re each other’s ally, and so you want what’s best for both, for yourself and for that individual, and it really creates this really strong culture. 

AW: I think that may be something that stands out about you compared to. I haven’t heard people articulate that so clearly. The other thing that I’m hearing quite clearly and consistently, Michèle, is your focus on feedback.

And I talk about this all the time. I’ve received in the last, you know, six years as I’ve been doing talk about talk podcasts and workshops. Twice, I’ve received emails from people saying, Andrea, are you open to hearing feedback? And when I get that email, so I usually do say, you know, please run a survey after, please share the results with me.

You know, I say feedback is a gift, and I really do mean that. But every now and then someone will say, are you open to feedback? And then I’m like, this is not gonna be fun. But yes. And it’s like we have this human to look for flattery and compliments, and when it is constructive criticism, it’s really, really hard.

Do you have any advice for people on how to get over that? It’s not easy. 

MB: Yeah. You know, interestingly enough, I think it’s in our human instincts is to focus on what you know along with the direct feedback that’s not so maybe so, you know, pleasant and positive. You generally get some constructive feedback and for some reason all we focus on is that piece.

And so, you know, I always tell folks, listen to it, absorb it. Think about what one or two things you might do differently moving forward, and then put it on a shelf. Because you can’t constantly be thinking about that every time you’re talking, acting, moving, writing an email, because then it consumes you.

And you’ll also then don’t even recognize all the great things that people have said about you. And so I love the fact that we run a lot of assessments on people in psychoanalyze leaders and so on and so forth. But with that is some very, very rich feedback. And you can get really caught up on one element of it and lose sight of all of the great things that have also been said.

So one or two quick things you’re gonna change, put it on the shelf. Read the good stuff, move on. 

AW: Okay. And the good stuff may inform something that I talk about a lot, which is your personal brand or your professional identity, right? Those are the things that you wanna reinforce, that you wanna be known for, and that ultimately become part of your leadership style.

And I think the span of your career. I covered a massive paradigm shift. I always think of the Jack Welch GE era, where it was like authoritarian leadership, and here’s how you do the command and control style to improve productivity and results and blah, blah, blah. And it was like this, I guess, assumption that people had that if you were friendly, or god forbid, maternal.

Your interactions at work that you were weak and you were not results-oriented. And there, there’s definitely been a shift where the people are now criticizing that authoritarian paradigm and focused on things like psychological safety, taking risks, and being authentic. Can you talk a little bit about your experience with, do you, first of all, do you agree that has been a paradigm shift and your observations there?

Kindness Is Not Weakness: The Evolution of Modern Leadership

MB: Yeah, it’s definitely a paradigm shift because it’s now an expectation of the workforce. If you do not shift, you’re going to struggle to build the workforce you want or the best of the best in the workforce to have them come and work for you. I live by this statement. People say it describes me to as I say, do not mistake my kindness for weakness.

AW: Oh, I love that. So good. 

MB: And that is really what I believe was that kind of unlock when I was 25 years old, was I realized that I could be kind and strong and confident and successful. And so there are a couple of things I think, you know, from a leadership style, being confident but not arrogant is probably one of the most important steps.

Now, there is an expectation now of our workforce. We show up in a way that is absolutely confident. People won’t follow you if you’re not leading with confidence, but they certainly will not follow you if you lead with arrogance. It’s just not something the workforce today will accept. I also say get spend time, invest time in getting to know the people who work for you that matters more today than it ever has. 

People want you want to know about their families, their schools, their hobbies, their pets, their likes, their dislikes, their career ambition. Once we establish that kind of relationship and they’ve seen how much you’ve invested in them and how much time you’ve spent just getting to know them and not necessarily talking about the business, then the world is your oyster.

You can ask for just about anything, and that’s where I believe this like virtuous cycle of high performance comes into play, where when I have seen myself create a relationship with someone. That is so deeply rooted in me getting to know them and spending that time with them. I can ask them just about anything, and the last thing they wanna do is disappoint me, and so they go above and beyond anything I would’ve ever expected.

Then I get to recognize them and reward them for incredible work. And then together we set new heights as far as what we can achieve. And then it becomes this like incredible flywheel where you’re actually getting better and better results. And then other people wanna join this because they see the success, they see the rewards, they see the appreciation.

And it creates this culture of, of high performance that I, you know, have prided myself over the last, you know, several decades of making sure that I created and I go to work. This is one of the easiest jobs ever because people just wanna do more, and they just wanna do well. You know, people always said to me, Michèle, we just never wanna disappoint you, but we know if we do, it’s not the end of the world.

We’ll fix it, and we’ll move on. And that, to me, the epitome of leadership, I think. And we achieved great things together, and I was really proud of the team. But along with that comes a lot of honesty. Some real deep-rooted conversations around feedback, and because you have such strong relationship, you set it up, and you say, listen, I want you to be successful and to be successful.

I think you’re gonna need me to be really transparent with you. When I see some an opportunity, do you give me permission to do that? And then the answer is always yes, because they know it’s gonna come from a place of kindness, but not a place of weakness. 

AW: So as you’re sharing all of these things that you thought about, that you think about, it’s becoming pretty apparent how your success happened.

I wanted to double down on two of the things that you said. One was it’s confidence is a requirement. I, I say that too. I was just teaching a group about this last night, and we were talking about how. If you’re not confident, you can’t establish credibility, and people only follow people that are confident and credible, but not arrogant.

So specifically, how do you, how did you prevent yourself from slipping into that arrogant territory? And if you notice someone who was reporting to you who might be, you know, they start off as a little bit more anxious, and then they build up their confidence, and then it just keeps going into arrogant territory.

What would you tell them, or what, what were you thinking about to prevent that from happening? 

MB: Yeah, I’d say sometimes you, um. It happens, and you don’t even notice it, right? So that’s why you’ve gotta have those great people on your board of directors who kind of remind you that it’s happening. But I also, I think if you surround yourself with the right people, I’m a firm believer that my job as a CEO of McDonald’s Canada was to have smarter people than me at the table surrounding me.

And when you actually firmly believe that you don’t just say it, but you actually believe it, it’s really easy to be confident because you know you’ve put the right people at the table, but it’s really hard to be arrogant because most of them are smarter than you. And so my job is never to be the most, you know, knowledgeable financier or real estate rep, or that’s why you surround yourself with the best of the best in the industries, you know, and the functions that you require to run your business.

The art of being a really strong leader is the ability to be able to do that, and people will only work for you if you are confident but not arrogant. And it’s easy not to be arrogant when you know that there are people who know more than you do around the table about their particular piece. 

AW: It goes back to what you said about curiosity, and also if you’re genuinely curious.  Then you’re not arrogant, right? Like arrogant. People think they know everything. 

MB: One of the things that I realized I did all the time, and it’s funny, I’ve never even thought of it, but the team would say to me after, would say, it’s so helpful when you do that because it gives permission. I, you know, as a CEO, of course, I had lots of opinions, and I had lots of thoughts on how we might do things and do better, and so on and so forth.

And when I would make a statement, and I would realize that I was making a statement that could carry a lot of weight and that people might just take and run with when I was done, I’d always say, does that make sense or is anybody thinking about it differently? 

AW: Wow. Yeah. 

MB: And so you. Because you, you, what you need to realize very quickly is that, you know, when you take on this kind of a role, any leadership role where you have a team of people who are looking to you to set direction, vision, strategy, what you say carries a lot of weight, but you may not always have it right?

And so you have to create this environment where you might make a type a statement where you might wanna create a certain expectation, but you gotta validate that it’s right. And so, you know, what it did is it just created this environment where I could push the envelope really, really far, sometimes, often, but the team would then, you know, say, well, what, you know, we need to think about this, and we might wanna reflect on that.

And then we would probably get to the sweet spot of where that should be. But they were given permission, and there was an environment where they were expected to provide a point of view on my point of view. And that takes time, trust, and patience because it’s not automatic. Because you ask the question that they’re actually gonna say it.

AW: Yeah. Yeah. And you’re, it sounds as if you have exceptional self-awareness. Michèle, you’re conscious of the fact that. How you respond to their questions. Maybe the risky comments that the self-perceived risky comments that they’re making when they’re questioning something that you’re recommending or suggesting your response to those things has significant impact on the moment, but really also on the culture. Right? 

MB: Yeah. And I didn’t always get it right, you know, the importance of, of self-awareness and transparency. Yeah. Um, but again, when I didn’t. Most of the time, I knew I didn’t. And you know, I would take a deep breath, walk around the building, come back, and say, all right, let’s chat about it. Where did I go wrong there?

And, find the person on the team who. Was in that place of trust and comfort to be able to say, yeah, maybe that wasn’t, you know, the way we shoulda handled it, or whatever it may be, but acknowledge it and correct it, and all that does is goes back to, it builds that credibility because you’re confident enough to come back and acknowledge it and get it right.

AW: And encouraging them to do the same thing. 

MB: And role modeling that is so critically important. 

AW: Oh, Michèle, it sounds like such an incredible, such an inspiring, uh, work environment that you cultivated. You mentioned the word transparency, and previously you were talking about, you know, asking people about their family, schools, and so on.

I’m wondering if you’ve thought at all strategically about authenticity versus transparency, and there’s this kind of adage that happened I guess, after COVID, during COVID, people were saying, I should be bringing my whole self to work, or wish we should be able to bring our whole selves to work. Are you bringing your whole self to work, and how that relates to transparency and authenticity in your thoughts on that?

MB: I believe it’s important you create an environment where people can do that. People are at their best when they can be themselves. And I reflect back on that 25-year-old who said, I’m not happy being that Iron Fist leader either. So why don’t I just be who I am? And if it’s good enough, then it’ll be successful.

And if it’s not, then maybe this isn’t for me. And I firmly believe in constantly creating this environment where people can just be who they are. I’ve seen people kind of come out of their shell and just do amazing things for the business and for their career. When they’re led by someone who they feel really comfortable with and know that they won’t be judged.

Now, that doesn’t mean I always agree with everybody’s points of view. It doesn’t mean that, you know, we didn’t have debates and disagreements and really strong discussions, but done in a respectful manner. And at the end of the day, there are times where I had to make decisions that weren’t popular. Not everybody agreed with it, but if you take the time to listen to everybody’s points of view, you demonstrate some empathy.

You sit in their seat for a minute, and you say, what might be their reaction to this? And if you’re able to look them straight in the eye and say, listen, I thought about what this might feel like for you or for, you know, a group of folks. And here, let me explain why I’m thinking that this is still the right decision for the business.

I wasn’t. I mean, we were running a business, right? And so it still needed to be successful, and to be successful, sometimes you have to make really hard decisions. But if people knew that in the end they were allowed to express themselves, their points of view, and show up in their authentic way, whether they got their way or not mattered a heck of a lot less because at least they knew.

I respected them enough to be able to hear them out, get their point of view, live in their shoes for a minute prior to making a decision. And then going forward and making the decision that was required for the business. 

AW: Yeah. It sounds like you’re so skillfully walking that fine line between like personal but not personal.

I mean, business is business. The business is about working with people and back to like getting to know your family, the schools, the community that you live in, what you care about, and knowing that I respect your personal advice, the advice from you about what the, whatever the business decision is. But then ultimately we’re, the decision that Michèle is making is to whatever, achieve the business goals.

Preparing for the Next Chapter: From CEO to Board Leadership

So, wow. I wish I’d been a fly on the wall. I wish I’d been an employee back then. So I, I wanna shift gears with all of our, uh, careers are in transition, but you’re currently undergoing experiencing a transition where you retired from this position of CEO of McDonald’s Canada, and now you are doing corporate board work.

And so I’m wondering if you have any advice for the listeners about how to narrate in an effective way. Career transitions. I have a feeling that this is something that you would be very conscious of. 

MB: Yeah. Get help. There are actually professionals out there who do this really, really well, and so I have, I’ve always had a professional coach, and she is, you know, one of my.

Members of my personal board of directors for many years now, and she’s probably my most honest, um, you know, feedback provider that I have. And she’s amazing. And, obviously, you know, she works with a lot of companies and CEOs and boards, and so obviously she has real-life examples, example and lots of advice to offer.

So she’s, you know, really important. But I’ve also worked with someone else who’s just helped me think differently about my resume, my bio, how I show up on LinkedIn, all of those things. There are professionals out there who can help you transition because when you’re in a role of CEO or any leadership role, you’re busy.

You don’t necessarily have a whole lot of time to think about what does this next chapter looks like. You get in that next chapter, and that’s when you can dedicate some time for that. And as a CEO, I wasn’t on a whole lot of boards, um, because I was so focused on our business. So I had a couple of boards that I sat on, but to be perfectly honest with you.

Now is a whole other world and something that I want to jump into. And they have been extremely helpful. And just last week I was talking to a young man who wanted some advice on how does he prepare for this? He’s new in business, but he wanted, and you know, and I said, listen, there are classes, there are courses you know that you should be looking into, meet with people who have successfully joined.

Boards, like the ones that you’re interested in in the future, and set yourself up. And some of it, you talked about networking earlier, a lot of it is around networking as well. And you know, in some ways I wish I’d invested a little bit more in networking and in other ways I’m just being smart about how do I leverage the network that I have today to continue to build on it.

And you know, good things will come, I have no doubt. But yeah, it takes a lot of preparation, and again, I just surrounded myself with people who knew how to do it really well. And took the time to listen to their advice. 

AW: I have to say, Michèle, these board positions that you’re gonna land or that you have landed are exceptionally fortunate.

I can imagine you sitting around the boardroom table asking the really important questions and even kind of helping. Optimize the culture, I guess, of the board and of the organization. So I can’t wait to see what you do next. 

Rapid-Fire Questions

But now’s the time for me to ask you the three rapid-fire questions. Are you ready?

MB: I am 

AW: Question number one. Actually, I don’t know the answer to this one. I’ve now met you virtually and in person, but I, I’m not sure, are you an introvert or an extrovert? 

MB: So it’s changed I think over the years, and so I think professionally I’m more extroverted. But not necessarily by choice. Um, my role had, you know, me kind of in the spotlight all the time, and so one that I just embraced and worked on, but what it did is it led me to become very introverted in my personal life.

Um, needed a lot of time to. Quiet time, time to recharge. And so the folks around me professionally would never say I’m introverted, but the people in my life personally would tell you absolutely. There’s definitely some introversion there for sure. 

AW: I appreciate how you are distinguishing between where I get my energy clearly is solitude, recharging through solitude, right?

But that doesn’t mean on the other hand, that you don’t have an energetic presence. Okay. Question number two, what are your communication pet peeves? 

MB: I think people giving me the answer they think I want to get rather than what they’re really, really saying or thinking. And to me, if I’m asking you, it’s because I really wanna know what your thoughts are, but I also recognize that it takes time.

You have to be patient. Create that environment where people feel that way. But if I’m asking, it’s wanna. I can kind of see through that when I’m talking with people, and I sometimes will just say, stop. I know you’re thinking differently. I don’t wanna hear what you think I wanna hear. I wanna hear what you really think.

AW: So good. So good. Okay, last question. Is there a podcast or a book that you find yourself recommending lately to people in your network? 

MB: I mean, talk, talk, podcast, of course. 

AW:  Other than Talk About Talk. Okay. 

MB: Yeah. You know what, I started with this. If you’ve ever never read the book Grit, uh, from Angela Duckworth, I would recommend it.

I love the idea that grit is twice the indicator of success and intelligence. And you know, this idea also kind of goes. Well, with, um, you know, you don’t have to be the smartest person in the room. You just have to bring the smartest people around you to be successful. And this concept of, you know, grittiness and really working, you know, until you try and try and try again until you, you’re successful, to me is, has really been an unlock and realizing that.

It was okay not to be that smartest person in the room. It just needed to be really gritty, and that I think, has attributed a lot to my success. I had the opportunity to meet Angela Duckworth and listen to her speak about her work and ever since then, I’ve been fascinated by this book, and I go back to it.

Sometimes I’ll go back, and I’ll read a chapter because I don’t quite remember exactly everything in the chapter, but I know there’s a nugget in there that I think I can use. And I think everybody that I meet ends up buying the book because I’m like the, probably her number one cheerleader for this book.I just love the book itself, but the idea behind it. 

AW: So I have to say, Michèle, that you come across as someone who truly exemplifies. The grittiness and the growth mindset that she advocates is very evident and it’s very impressive and inspiring. I wanna say thank you for joining us and is there anything else you wanna share with the talk about, talk listeners about optimizing their communication, their leadership style as they navigate their own careers?

MB: I think the last thing I would just say is this world is rapidly changing, the workforce is rapidly changing and assessing and adapting your leadership style is going to be more important than ever. Now, that doesn’t mean it’s bad. It doesn’t mean that it’s, you know, you’ve done something wrong. It’s simply taking the time to assess it, and you’re likely not gonna need an overhaul. You’re probably just going to need some tweaks. 

But the smart and incredibly successful leaders out there do that regularly. They surround themselves with people who give them the honest feedback in that allows them to identify where those opportunities are. So if you are not doing that exercise of reflecting on how do I need to adapt, I would suggest that that’s something you really incorporate into your annual thinking and planning and, and strategizing.

Uh, every year, at the very least, give us some thought, see if there’s anything but the speed at which things are happening in our world. You’re gonna have to be a very different leader than the folks who have led in the last 40 years, myself included. 

AW: Wonderful advice. Michèle. Thank you so much for so generously sharing your suggestions and your experience with us.Thank you. 

MB: Pleasure. Thank you.

AW: Isn’t Michèle fantastic? I enjoyed that conversation even more than I anticipated. And like I said at the beginning, I didn’t really know Michèle, and I didn’t know where the conversation was gonna go, but I know she provided us with so much gold. 

Key Takeaways from My Conversation with Michèle

So here are three things before we go that I wanna reinforce in terms of my learnings and things that I hope you’ll remember from this episode.

They are feedback, the power of your network, and some networking suggestions. And the third thing is about your leadership style. 

1. Seek Feedback—and Act on It

So in terms of feedback, this I would say really was the main theme, at least for me from this conversation. Michèle provided us with a fantastic example of how proactively seeking feedback and then being self-reflective on that feedback can really catalyze and advance your career.

I don’t think I could put that anymore clearly. And Michèle’s example, as I say, is the epitome of this. So instead of avoiding feedback, seek it out proactively and act on it. That’s number one. 

2. Build a Strategic Network (Your Personal Board of Directors)

Number two is about strategic networking. Michèle spoke at the beginning about creating a personal board of directors around her, and I’ve talked about this in past episodes and with other guests about the research and the power of having mentors.

Also, sponsors, champions, or advocates. Michèle encourages us to also add a third role to our network, and that’s allies. And I know many of us do this sort of serendipitously, maybe less strategically. We make friends with people at work, but she advocates that we not only have these champions or advocates and these mentors, but also peers and allies.

We can count on in our network to help us grow and improve. Back to the feedback theme, right? 

3. Lead with Kindness and Confidence

The third thing that I wanna reinforce with you is about leadership style. So a couple things here. Michèle described explicitly how there’s been this paradigm shift from the authoritarian dictator type leader to a more authentic and open style of leadership.

She also talked about being true to your own style. She mentioned a couple of times that once she realized what her true leadership style was, she decided to embody it. Whether the organization respected that or not, and fortunately, it did. I would say, fortunately for her and fortunately for McDonald’s Canada, I loved her line.

Do not mistake my kindness for weakness. Yes, you can lead a high-performing organization. You can be productive. You can meet all of your business goals. You can be strong, but also be kind. Make no mistake, I love this leadership style, and I’m optimistic that the world is evolving to a place where this kind of leader is highly valued.

That’s it for this episode of the Talk About Talk podcast. I hope you enjoyed it. I would love to hear your comments. I’d also love it if you subscribe, whatever platform you’re on, whether it’s Spotify, Apple or YouTube. Wherever you’re listening, just hit subscribe and you won’t miss any episodes.

Thanks for listening and talk soon.

The post What 40 Years at McDonald’s Taught One CEO About COMMUNICATION and LEADERSHIP – with Michèle Boudria (ep. 208) appeared first on Talk About Talk.

“You need to demonstrate executive presence.” What exactly does that actually mean? And why does it feel like code for “be someone you’re not”?

In this Talk About Talk episode, Dr. Andrea Wojnicki shares why the term “executive presence” isn’t ideal, and how “leadership presence” should replace it. She also shares a “Leadership Presence Hierarchy” framework that highlights what specific skills you need to work on.

DOWNLOAD THE FRAMEWORK NOW at:  https://www.talkabouttalk.com/leadershippresence

Check out the four-tier” Leadership Presence Hierarchy” that takes you from foundational communication skills all the way to having real impact.

This isn’t about conforming to some 1980s CEO stereotype. It’s about showing up authentically while commanding respect, building credibility, and getting heard.

CONNECT WITH ANDREA

🌐 Website: https://talkabouttalk.com/

🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/

✉️ Andrea’s Email Newsletter: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/newsletter/

🟣 Talk About Talk on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talk-about-talk-communication-skills-training/id1447267503

🟢 Talk About Talk on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3afgjXuYZPmNAfIrbn8zXn?si=9ebfc87768524369

📺 Talk About Talk on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube

TRANSCRIPTION

The folks that are getting promoted to the C-Suite have executive presence, but the ones who stall out do not. Since I coach senior executives and aspiring senior executives, I get asked about this topic of executive presence all the time. In fact, I’d say that over the last year I’ve noticed a real uptick in clients seeking guidance on how to establish the all elusive executive presence. 

Sometimes they’re being proactive, but sometimes this high potential leader is sent to me by their HR manager, and they’ll tell me something like, this person has all the check marks for the C-suite, but they really need to demonstrate executive presence.

And by the way, I always tell the person, this is very good news. Your employer thinks you have what it takes. They’re investing in you. Anyway, as I said, I’ve definitely noticed an uptick in requests for coaching on executive presence, but I have to tell you something else. I’ve also noticed increased pushback associated with this term.

Let’s do this. Let’s talk about talk 

In this episode, I’m gonna share with you some important background on executive presence, why it’s so important, why I suggest we relabel it to something else, and a list of specific skills that you need to acquire. You can think of this as a checklist, your executive presence, or leadership presence playbook. Are you ready?

Welcome to the Talk About Talk podcast. My name is Dr. Andrea Wojnicki, and I’m your executive communication coach. Please just call me Andrea. I’m here to help you improve your communication skills so that you can achieve your career goals. In addition to this biweekly talk about talk podcast, you can learn more from me through the workshops, keynotes, and master classes that I run plus, private coaching and a growing library of on-demand online courses. 

You can learn more about everything we offer at Talk About Talk by checking out the website at TalkAboutTalk.com. You can even set up a consult with me there. Check it out. TalkAboutTalk.com. 

Executive Presence: Why It Matters—and Why It’s Controversial

Okay, let’s talk Executive presence. Executive presence is one of those things that might be tough to define, but you know it when you see it.

Am I right? The professionals that I coach tell me that it’s all about confidence, feeling, and, more importantly, being perceived as confident, but of course not. Arrogant and executive presence is necessary to achieving leadership status. This is what I hear from the HR managers, right? 

The folks that are getting promoted to the C-Suite have executive presence, but the ones who stall out do not.

That is why people are seeking coaching in this area. Well, here’s the good news. Executive presence can be learned. I’ve worked with senior folks with exactly this quandary. They have all the technical skills and people like them. They’re likable. People are rooting for them, but they’re missing this magical executive presence.

I remember coaching a senior partner at a consulting firm. Who had this exact experience, and after I worked with him for about two months, he started to feel more confident, but also, at least as importantly, he started getting comments from others about his improved confidence and his presence. So what exactly is this executive presence?

One of the most common definitions that you’ll hear is from an author named Sylvia Ann Hewlett. She says executive presence is a set of qualities that enable leaders to inspire confidence in others. In her research, Sylvia highlights. Three, of course, three ingredients that comprise executive presence.

One, communication skills as in public speaking, body language, and so on. Two, gravitas as in confidence, integrity, unflappability, and three, appearance. In other words, how you show up. When I read this list of three ingredients, I thought. Oh good. This is all about communication. Of course, there’s communication skills, she says, but also gravitas and appearance.

And to me, all of these things are communication. And the good news again is that communication can be learned. So we can think of executive presence in terms of Hewlett’s definition. Executive presence is a set of qualities that enable leaders to inspire confidence in others. And you can also think of it specifically in terms of these three ingredients.

She highlights these ingredients as communication skills, gravitas, and appearance. Now, before I go on, I also wanna clarify what executive presence is not. First of all, executive presence is not a title. In other words, you don’t need to be in the C-suite to have executive presence, and actually, not everyone in the C-Suite has executive presence.

Of course, if you do have it, you’re more likely to ascend the corporate ladder. Executive presence does not equal title or status. Executive presence is also different from expertise. I mean expertise as in technical skills. Of course, expertise is also something that we need to succeed in our careers, but executive presence is very different from expertise.

What I often observe is that people who come to me for coaching, they often have technical expertise and they’re looking to brush up on their executive presence. So executive presence is not the same as status. It’s not the same as expertise. It’s also different from charisma. Charisma is more about energy and emotional impact.

Charisma can help boost your executive presence, but I would say executive presence is broader. Charisma is about attracting and energizing people. It’s often associated with extrovertedness. On the other hand, executive presence is about substance plus delivery, and you definitely do not need to be an expert to have executive presence.

That said, I’ve noticed that many people conflate executive presence with extroversion. This is just wrong, and this isn’t the only issue that I’ve been hearing and reading about executive presence. It wouldn’t be an exaggeration to say that the term executive presence turns many people off altogether.

I have a masterclass that I run a few times a year, focused on. You guessed it. Developing executive presence and your personal brand, and more than a few times, I’ve had to carefully define with people exactly what I mean and what I don’t mean when I say executive presence. Generally, it seems that some people are legitimately turned off when they’re told that they need to develop executive presence because it often feels like vague-coded feedback that’s used to block their promotion. 

And this happens especially to women and racialized people more than once. I’ve heard people say that when they hear the term executive presence, an image of General Electrics or GEs former CEO, Jack Welch comes to mind, along with what they see as his direct, non-inclusive, formal, authoritarian leadership style nowadays.

Our celebrated leaders are authentic. Yes, I said it. The A word and inclusive, I guess that’s the I word. Importantly, today’s celebrated leaders are listening to learn, not narrow-minded and authoritarian. 

From Executive Presence to Leadership Presence

For all of these reasons, I suggest that we change the term from executive presence to leadership presence.

Executive presence is just too loaded. Leadership presence is something that many of us aspire to. This term, leadership presence might just be more ethical and better for business outcomes. It can also be used in context outside of the executive boardroom, like with the other professionals. I coach leaders in medicine, leaders in law, and so on.

They don’t call themselves executives, but they do aspire to leadership. So what do you think? Let’s call it leadership presence. 

The Leadership Presence Hierarchy: From Skills to Impact

Now, what I’d love to share with you is my model for developing leadership presence. This model is based on my reading of books and articles on yes, executive presence, plus my observations from coaching hundreds of professionals, thousands.

If you include the corporate workshops that I run, it’s a framework that I illustrate as a hierarchy. If you’re watching on YouTube, you can see this hierarchy on the screen. If you’re listening, you can easily download the framework. If you go to talk about talk.com/leadership presence, that’s talk about talk.com/leadership presence.

Yes, I made it easy for you, of course. So whether you’re looking at the framework right now or not, I can describe it to you. 

Level 1: Foundational Communication Skills

At the bottom of the hierarchy, we have foundational communication skills, things like body language, storytelling, listening, communicating with precision, vocal presence. I call these foundational communication skills, not because they’re easy.

In fact, folks with true leadership presence often go back and revisit these foundational communication skills to elevate their leadership presence, but I call them foundational because they’re at the bottom. And here’s what my clients tell me. When we’ve been doing some work to elevate or improve their foundational communication skills, they start to feel confident and they’re often told that they appear more confident by others. 

Level 2: Building Confidence (Internal and External)

So this makes up the next level of the hierarchy of confidence. Again, this is both confidence in terms of how you feel and how you’re perceived. The interesting thing about this level is that there’s a couple different ways of elevating your confidence.

As I said, you can do so by improving your communication skills. You can also directly improve your confidence by doing things like learning about imposter syndrome and how to overcome it. You can also learn mindsets and tactics that are specifically focused on elevating your confidence. Things like slow deep breathing. 

Things like expansive body language and things like positive self-talk. These are all tactics that can directly boost your confidence. So here, we’re ready for the next step. We’ve started with our foundational communication skills. We’ve experienced improved confidence. 

Level 3: Establishing Credibility

Once we are feeling more confident and we’re being perceived as more confident, this is when we start to establish credibility.

Again, there are things that we can do to directly boost our credibility. I’ve got three ideas. One, focus on developing your personal brand. Two, focus on demonstrating leadership, and three, focus on your influence. So let me go into a little bit of detail about each of these. 

Credibility Driver #1: Define and Reinforce Your Unique Personal Brand

First focusing on establishing your unique personal brand.

Notice the term unique. As I said at the beginning, one of the criticisms of this executive presence notion is that some people believe it means conforming to a stereotype of what a leader should look like. Personal branding. Is the opposite of this. The way I coach personal branding. It’s about identifying, articulating, and reinforcing your unique brand, your unique strengths and passions.

So this is the opposite of conforming. It’s about standing out as your true, unique, and best self. So that’s one way that you can really help establish your credibility. 

Credibility Driver #2: Demonstrate Leadership (Proactive, Strategic, Thought)

The second is by demonstrating leadership. When I coach people on demonstrating leadership, I often share with them that the obvious way to demonstrate leadership is to be a good people leader, right?

That’s where our mind goes to when we hear the word leader. But don’t forget, there are many, many ways to demonstrate leadership. Consider, for example, just being proactive, being the person who comes up with innovative and creative ideas. If you think about it, leaders lead; they are out front.

Proactive. So be proactive, and people will see you as a leader. There’s also strategic leadership. The leaders that we admire are strategic thinkers, right? They’re identifying and then reinforcing strategy. They think strategically. So there’s people leadership, there’s proactive leadership, there’s strategic leadership, and there’s also thought leadership.

What area do you have expertise in where you wanna share your thought leadership? Privately inside your organization and even publicly on social media and beyond. So thought leadership. And then the last thing that I share with my clients who I’m working with on demonstrating leadership is simply using the word lead.

Use the word lead led leadership leader, especially when you’re referencing yourself, and people will start to think of you as a leader as well. Okay, so we’re still at this, almost at the top of our leadership presence hierarchy. We’re at the credibility stage, and we’ve talked about developing your personal brand.

We’ve talked about demonstrating leadership. 

Credibility Driver #3: Strengthen Your Influence

The third way that you can reinforce your credibility is by focusing on influence. This is about negotiating and making an impact. This is about being heard. If you think about it. This is all about effective communication skills and confidence, too. Do you see how all the layers reinforce themselves?

So now you see how this leadership presence hierarchy works. Again, we start with the foundational communication skills, and as we improve our communication skills, we start to feel and be perceived as more confident. There are things we can do to further. Improve our confidence, and that’s when we start to establish credibility again.

There are ways that we can reinforce our credibility, personal brand, demonstrating leadership, and working on our influence. 

The Apex: Creating Real Impact

Once we’ve done all of these things, we reach the apex or the top of the leadership presence hierarchy, which I label as impact. What that impact is is personal. For you, it could be getting a new job, it could be getting a promotion.

It might simply be being heard in meetings when you’re at work, you can achieve impact when you have leadership presence. 

And that’s it for this episode. I hope you’re feeling a little bit more informed and inspired to develop leadership presence. Now I have an ask, two asks, actually. First, please hit subscribe.

Wherever you’re listening, whether it’s Spotify, Apple, or YouTube, wherever you are, please hit subscribe, and then you won’t miss any of the communication skills, coaching tips that you get from me and Talk About Talk every two weeks. My second ask is that you share this episode with a friend. Do you have a friend who might benefit from these insights on executive presence and leadership presence?

Spread the word. Thank you. So much, and thank you for listening. Talk soon.

The post Rethinking Executive Presence: How to Show Up with Real LEADERSHIP PRESENCE (ep. 207) appeared first on Talk About Talk.

You know the person: they derail meetings, push back on everything, and somehow make simple projects complicated. So how do you actually handle it without losing your mind?

In this Talk About Talk episode, Dr. Andrea Wojnicki walks you through exactly what to do when you’re dealing with difficult people at work, whether that’s a customer, a direct report, a peer, or even your boss.

If you’re wondering when and how to escalate the situation, Andrea’s five-step escalation sequence provides you with a step-by-step playbook. You’ll also learn the two-word principle that keeps you from getting pulled into drama with difficult people.

This is Part 2 of a two-part series. If you haven’t listened to Part 1 yet, start there to get the foundational framework. Then come back here for the specific tactics.

CONNECT WITH ANDREA

🌐 Website: https://talkabouttalk.com/

🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreawojnicki/

✉️ Andrea’s Email Newsletter: https://www.talkabouttalk.com/newsletter/

🟣 Talk About Talk on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/talk-about-talk-communication-skills-training/id1447267503

🟢 Talk About Talk on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3afgjXuYZPmNAfIrbn8zXn?si=9ebfc87768524369

📺 Talk About Talk on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@talkabouttalkyoutube

TRANSCRIPTION

How to Respond When Difficult Behavior Continues

Focus on the issue, not on the person. Refuse to get pulled into the, you always do this, you’ve done this, you shouldn’t do that. You can’t do this. It’s not about you and me. It’s actually about the issue or the challenge.

Welcome to the Talk About Talk podcast. This is part two of a two part mini series on how to deal with difficult people.

So here’s the question. Have you noticed someone at work who’s being chronically difficult, confrontational, or nasty? Either to you or maybe to everyone. Have you tried to diagnose what’s going on based on the Dr. David rock scarf framework and still nothing has changed? Well, I hope what you’re about to learn in this episode will have a positive impact.

Let’s do this. Let’s talk about talk. We’re going to. Strategies for how you can respond to these difficult people depending on who they are. And I’m also gonna share a sequence of steps that you can follow, steps that you should follow if things aren’t changing or perhaps if they’re getting worse.

Let me start with strategies for how to respond to different people. How you respond, what you do can and should vary depending on who it is that’s being difficult.

How to Respond Based on Who’s Being Difficult

So I’m gonna run through this list of five different types of people or categories of people and what you should and shouldn’t do depending on who they are.

That’s being difficult. You’ll see what I mean in a minute. So the first one. Is no one. So it’s not that the person is being difficult, it’s actually that you are in a difficult or a challenging situation. In this case, I say, great, the opportunity here is for you to pull the team together and go for a win.

Corral the group and focus on what you can do to overcome this difficult situation. Okay, that was a little bit of a cheater. Now let’s get into the actual people. So imagine you have this scenario where it’s either a one-off situation or a customer or a client who is chronically difficult. The first thing I suggest you do is pause.

Don’t get caught up. Getting emotional and responding in a reactionary way to how this difficult client or customer is acting. The second thing that I do, and this one is magic, focus on the issue, not on the person. Refuse to get. Pulled into the, you always do this. You’ve done this. You shouldn’t do that.

You can’t do this. It’s not about you and me. It’s actually about the issue or the challenge, and it’s the issue or the challenge that they are probably experiencing. So you could say, Hmm, I understand how this would be very frustrating, or, let’s work on this together. I think we can solve this. You’re focusing on.

The issue or the challenge, not the person, it’s the situation, not the person. And then the third thing, I alluded to this a little bit here in the example that I gave. Use the pronoun, we make the default that you are working with this client or this customer in solving the challenge. Okay? So again, if it’s a client or a customer, pause.

Don’t react before thinking and remind yourself, focus on the issue or the situation, not on the person, and use the term we be inclusive and encourage you to work together to solve the problem. So that’s the first one. The next one is if it’s a peer. In the previous episode, I shared a scenario where a newly promoted partner named Leanne was being challenged on a daily basis by her peer named Mike, who is also a partner at the same consulting firm where she worked.

Here’s what you do with a peer. You have the opportunity to get personal. I don’t mean necessarily that you’re sharing your private thoughts and your personal life with the person, but I just mean get them into a one-on-one situation and share how you’re feeling. I actually shared this advice with Leanne when I was coaching her.

I suggested that she invite Mike. To go out for lunch or for coffee and then talk to him. Say like, I noticed our relationship has really changed since we started working together as partners, and we used to confide in each other and help each other and celebrate each other. And I’d really love to go back to that because I think we can make each other look really good.

We could be a team. You don’t need to necessarily need to go that far, but getting personal is a suggestion that works really well if the difficult person is your peer, someone who’s at your level. Moving on. What if they’re not at your level, but they’re actually below your level? It might be someone that you are managing that’s reporting to you, or it could be someone in a different department, but they are at a lower level in the organization, in the hierarchy.

From where you are in this case, this is your opportunity. If they’re being chronically difficult to highlight the values, the expectations, and even the resources that the organization provides. People are being difficult. So I’m imagining someone here who you know is disrupting meetings, is disrupting progress and productivity in the projects that you’re working on.

And so you pull them aside and you say, listen, it seems like things aren’t as productive and positive. As I was hoping they would be. And I wanna share with you that this is not consistent with the values of the organization in this organization. We pride ourselves on being collaborative and on and on and on.

So you talk, highlight the firm’s values, the expectations of the organization, and even potentially, as I said, resources that you can share. It could be learning opportunities or other things, coaching to, uh, help the person. Whatever the challenges that they’re experiencing. Okay, so that’s if it’s a subordinate.

The next one gets really interesting, and I have two suggestions. If it’s your boss, things can get pretty tricky. So I have two suggestions. The first is a quick one. The second one requires a little bit of an explanation. So the first one, the quick one is if you are reporting to someone who is chronically difficult, you can ask yourself.

What can I learn from the situation? What can I learn about what I do not want to do if and when I get promoted to this level? I remember coaching a very impressive woman who was working in not-for-profit, and she was reporting to the executive director who was basically responsible for the not-for-profit and who reported into the board of directors, and she said, this woman was an absolute.

Tyrant, of course not with the board, but with her direct reports, including my client. And so I said, if nothing else, you can learn from this situation. What not to do when you someday become an executive director of a not-for-profit and you’ll know exactly what not to do. And in fact, fast forward a couple years, she now is an executive director of a different not-for-profit.

And she said, I have a playbook of what not to do, how not to treat my staff. So that’s one way of kind of it. It’s not overcoming the situation, but it’s reconciling it in your mind, how you can maintain a sense of productivity and maybe even job satisfaction. You’re learning what not to do. The second one here, I’m gonna say this is a little bit personal because this is advice that I received from my father when I had the experience of reporting to a boss who was being very difficult and chronically so.

So I have this distinct memory of. Presenting something to, it was my boss’s boss at the time, at a meeting where he had challenged me and the team that I was leading to meet certain challenges. And if we did, we were gonna be given permission to launch a new product. My team had gone away under my direction, established what the criteria that we were gonna achieve.

And we had worked together really hard to achieve this criteria, these benchmarks. And I went back with great pride in anticipation and presented our results and our recommendations for the new product launch to my boss’s boss. And he was like, eh, I don’t know, Andrea, I mean, whatever. And I was like, what?

I remember I was so upset. I eventually did convince him that we should launch the product that we had worked so hard on. But I remember being so upset and I actually went. I left the building. I went down to my car and I called my dad and I was commiserating. I said, dad, I don’t know what to do. I don’t know how much longer I can handle this.

I’m asking my team to jump through hoops, and they’re doing so and they’re exceeding my expectations. And then when I go to this guy, he’s constantly changing his mind. He’s a horrible boss. And my dad asked me this question that I’m now sharing with you. He said, does your boss’s boss do his values reflect.

The values of the organization, or is he an anomaly? And I said, why do you ask? He said, very simple, Andrea, if his values reflect the values of the organization and you are misaligned, you need to get outta there. However, if he’s the anomaly, if your boss’s boss is the one whose values contradict, not only yours, but also the values of the organization, things typically have a way of working out.

I was like, Hmm, that kind of makes sense. I would say in this case, it’s the latter. My boss’s boss is an anomaly. I know a lot of people get frustrated with him and his values are not aligned with those of the organization, and he said, well, my suggestion is not forever, Andrea. That would be ridiculous, but.

You could probably wait this out and things have a way of working out. And you know what? My dad was right within a couple months. This guy, he was a vice president at the time. He got moved into a different department and then he got let go and I thanked my father and I have shared that advice with plenty of people who say, this is very sage advice.

So if it’s your boss. First of all, ask yourself, what can I learn about how not to manage people from this person? And secondly, ask yourself whether their values and their behavior are aligned with the values of the organization. If they are not, you can wait it out. If they are, you probably need to make a move.

So we’ve covered now a couple of different scenarios, maybe. No one is being difficult, and it’s the situation that’s your opportunity to pull your team together. Perhaps it’s your client or your customer who’s being difficult, in which case I shared three suggestions. Pause, focus on the issue and use the term we, if it’s your peer, get personal.

If it’s your subordinate. Highlight the values, expectations, and resources of the organization. If it’s your boss, as I just said, ask yourself, what can I learn about what not to do? And ask yourself whether their values are aligned with the organization. There’s one other person that it might be that’s being difficult.

If it’s everyone, if everyone around you, all of your clients. Your peers, your subordinates, your boss, your family, your friends. If everyone is around you is being difficult, then I have to say it’s probably you. I’m just kidding. That never happens. So that’s my summary of the differential advice that I have for you for dealing with difficult people depending on who it is.

A Step-by-Step Sequence for When Things Don’t Improve

Now, this is critically important. What’s the sequence to follow when things. Aren’t getting better or maybe they’re even getting worse. Well, I have a list. This is a sequence, a step-by-step sequence of things that you should do. I distinctly remember sharing this with a senior leader whom I coached last year.

She was on the senior leadership team at her corporate law firm, and she hired me to help her communicate with more credibility and authority. She also specifically asked me how to respond to one of her peers. Another corporate lawyer who constantly interrupted her in their leadership team meetings. I shared the sequence with her then that I’m gonna take you through right now.

Are you ready? So the first thing is to casually reference whatever it is, secondly, publicly and directly reference it. Three, check in with others and get an ally. Four, ask the person directly and emphatically. And the fifth and last step. Is to escalate to HR or senior leadership. A lot of folks, including this woman, this corporate lawyer that I was coaching, they find themselves in these scenarios where they’ve, they really don’t have a strategy or a sequence to follow.

And having this sequence will make you feel like you’re in a little bit more control, and it’ll make sure that you are not wasting any opportunities to try to correct the situation. The idea here is that hopefully after step one or after step two or after step three, the sooner the better. The behavior is gonna change with a difficult person, so.

After you’ve started to notice what’s going on, and maybe you’ve even jotted down, I remembered it started on such and such date, you could put it in a journal or in an email to yourself or something. The first thing you should do is casually reference it. So I told this woman, this corporate lawyer, and I’m telling you, you could almost make a joke out of it.

You’re in a meeting, the guy interrupts you. You say, Hey, you keep interrupting me. No, go ahead. Go ahead. Right. You’re casually referencing it sometimes. Calling it out. Labeling the behavior will encourage the person to stop. Often not, but sometimes step two is much more direct. This is where you publicly and directly referenced the behavior.

So in the case of this corporate lawyer and this peer of hers that kept interrupting her, she said to him when he interrupted her twice in a meeting, she said, that is the second time. In the last 10 minutes that you’ve interrupted me, I’m gonna finish my sentence and then I’d love to hear what you have to say.

She said, I’m gonna finish my point here and then I’m gonna pass it over to you. And then she didn’t even pause. She just kept talking and turned it over to him. So this is step two, publicly and directly referencing the behavior. This is a little bit more emphatic than the casual reference, right? If that doesn’t work, you move on to step three.

This is when you check in with others. And potentially get an ally. So this woman with this gentleman who was interrupting her constantly, she went to one of the other senior partners and she said, listen. I’m not gossiping behind someone’s back. I just wanna make sure that what I’m witnessing here, what I’m experiencing is real.

I’ve noticed that whatever the guy’s name is, Sam is constantly interrupting me. I’m worried that it’s affecting my credibility and I’m feeling like my voice isn’t being heard. Is it just me? And the guy was like. It is not just you. It is absolutely not just you. I can’t believe that you’ve put up with it for as long as you can.

And that’s when she went in for the ally. She said, listen, the next time we’re in a meeting and I asked him to not interrupt me. If he keeps doing it, do you mind stepping in? And he goes, absolutely. In fact, you don’t need to say anything. I’ll say it. And so the next meeting that they went to, guess what happened?

The guy interrupted her and her friend Sam stepped in and said, listen. You’ve been interrupting her over, not just this meeting, but many meetings, and we all need to respect each other and to listen to what the points that we’re making. Please let her speak. Guess what? The interruption stopped. So that’s step three.

Check in with others. Make sure you’re clear by the way, when you’re checking in, this is not about gossiping. This is about confirming whether what you’re experiencing. Actually is what other people are witnessing and the opportunity potentially to get an ally on your side. If that doesn’t work, step four.

Is directly and emphatically asking the person to stop. So I shared with this client, this corporate lawyer, if he doesn’t stop, after you get an ally to step in for you, that’s when you book a meeting with him. Ask him to come into your office, close the door, look him in the eye and say, I’ve been tracking this for the last three months.

You’ve been interrupting me. It is affecting my credibility. It’s affecting our productivity as a leadership team, and I’m asking you to stop. That step is also necessary because if it doesn’t work after that, you go to step six, which is escalating to human resources or senior leadership. And here’s where it’s really important that you have followed the previous four steps, because if you go to hr, the first thing they’re gonna say is, have you asked them to stop?

Then they’re gonna say, have other people noticed this? Have you directly and emphatically asked this person to stop whatever the behavior is? Right? And you’re gonna say, I first noticed on this day, I casually referenced it on this day. I publicly and directly referenced it on this day. I checked in with so-and-so.

He or she confirmed that I’m not crazy. This is actually what’s going on. They became an ally. They also asked the person to stop, and then I booked a meeting with the person and directly and emphatically asked them, so you’re going in. In good faith, telling them that you tried to solve the problem, you solve yourself.

You did everything in your power and it didn’t work. This will help you maintain credibility with HR or senior leadership before you escalate it, and then you can turn things over to them knowing that you’ve done everything that you could.

Wrap-Up & Key Takeaways

Okay, so now in this episode. We’ve covered strategies for how to respond to different people who are being chronically difficult, depending on whether they’re your customer or your client, or your peer, or your subordinate or your boss.

Different strategies work for different people, and now you also know the sequence to follow. When things don’t get better, one casually reference it two publicly and directly reference it. Three. Check in with others and get an ally. Four. Ask them directly and emphatically, and then five, you can escalate it.

I hope that this episode in combination with the previous episode 2 0 4, where we talked about the mindset you need to adopt and the scarf framework for diagnosing what’s going on. I hope this helps you feel better equipped on how to deal with difficult people. Please. Let me know how it goes. I know it’s not pleasant, but these skills will help you immensely.

And don’t forget to subscribe to this talk about Talk podcast no matter what podcast platform you’re on. Click subscribe now so you don’t miss any of these opportunities for communication skills coaching. Thanks for listening and talk soon.

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