Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy

Do Negative Thoughts REALLY Cause Depression? An Answer--At Last!--from Research Featuring David Burns, Jeremy Karmel, Diane Spangler and Rhonda Barovsky Today, David and two dear colleagues--Jeremy Karmel, CEO of the Feeling Great Corporation, and Dr. Diane Spangler--share the amazing results of two types of research on the Feeling Great app that focus on two related and vitally important questions: How effective is the Feeling Great app? Research confirms it triggers incredibly fast and dramatic reductions in seven negative feelings: depression, anxiety, guil7, inadequacy, loneliness, hopelessness and anger. The speed and depth of these effects may substantially outstrip human therapists as well as antidepressant medications. How does it work?  What is the mechanism of action? People have argued intensely about the chicken vs the egg problem for more than 2,000 years. Do negative thoughts REALLY cause negative feelings? Or do negative feelings cause negative thoughts? Or both? Or neither? The answers are exciting! Warmly,. Rhonda, Jeremy, Diane, and David

Ask  David With Special Guest Expert, Dr. Matthew May Daily Mood Log: Does it have to be done perfectly? Somatic Complaints: How does TEAM Help?  Passive Aggression: What distortions cause it? Roger, from Australia, asks: Do daily mood logs still work if you complete them ‘imperfectly’? Roger also asks: Based on your clinical experience, what causes a reduction or complete elimination of in symptoms for people who present with somatic complaints or chronic pain? TOZ asks: Does passive aggressive behavior result from All-or-Nothing Thinking? The answers below were written prior to the show, based on correspondence with those who asked the questions. The live answers on the show will be different in many cases.  1, Roger, from Australia, asks: Do daily mood logs still work if you complete them ‘imperfectly’? 2. Roger also asks: Based on your clinical experience, what causes a reduction or complete elimination of symptoms for people who present with somatic complaints or chronic pain? Dear David, Sure, I would love to have my questions be on an Ask David! It would be okay for you to use my real name and my location as being in Australia for the podcast and show notes. I’ve reworded the questions so that they get across what I was actually trying to ask in my previous email. You might now have a slightly different response based on the new questions. I have to apologise as my wording in my previous email was confusing, even for me. Here’s a shorter version of the first question: “Dear David, I’ve got a question about doing daily mood logs as part of my psychotherapy homework. I tend to start a lot of new daily mood logs where I write my negative emotions and thoughts, as well as do positive reframing, but then get stuck when it comes to doing methods for challenging my negative thoughts, as I get caught up on trying to do the exercise perfectly. I get worried that I won’t see as much benefit from the exercise if I don’t do the steps perfectly or in order. Did you see improvements in patients who filled out their daily mood logs imperfectly? Perhaps they may have skipped steps or maybe they couldn’t crush their negative thoughts completely, but continued to move on to working with new thoughts and seeing if they could crush those.” An even shorter version of the question would be: “Do daily mood logs still work if you complete them ‘imperfectly’?” A shorter version of the question about somatic complaints and pain is: “I’ve also got a question on treating somatic symptoms and chronic pain. Some clinicians have seen people improve by doing journalling or expressive writing about life stressors such as past stressors, current stressors, and self-limiting behaviours or beliefs. Other activities which seem to be useful include writing unsent letters to people who’ve hurt you, or doing behavioural changes for self-limiting beliefs like learning how to designate free time for yourself if you have a tendency to take on too much or feel guilty about spending time relaxing and not doing work. I was wondering what you’ve seen in your clinical experience and what you’ve seen patients do which helps them reduce or eliminate their somatic symptoms and chronic pain?" An even shorter version of that question would be: “Based on your clinical experience, what causes a reduction or complete elimination of in symptoms for people who present with somatic complaints or chronic pain?" Regards, Roger He David’s reply Thanks, these short versions are a big improvement. Here are the quick answers: The critical thing is to come up with one or more positive thoughts that are 100% true, and that reduce your belief in the negative thought. If you send a specific example, it would help. There are several rules about getting workable negative thoughts as well. Perfection is never possible in the universe of daily mood logs, but excellence certainly is. A change in belief in neg thoughts is the goal. In my experience, somatic complaints, such as undiagnosed pain, dizziness, fatigue, and more, are often created or magnified by (or the expression of) negative emotions, as well as hidden emotions / problems. The average reduction of pain, for example, will be 50% if there is a dramatic reduction in negative feelings, or if the patient identifies and tackles some unexpressed problem, like anger, or unexpressed grief, or loneliness when the kids go off to college, and so forth. An average of 50% means that some people will experience a complete elimination of the negative symptoms, like pain. Some will experience no improvement. And some will experience some improvement. With regard to how or why this works, I don’t really know, and don’t think that anyone knows. But it seems like negative feelings, like depression, anxiety, anger and so forth have a magnifying effect on negative feelings. On the podcast, I can give a personal example of when I was in the Stanford emergency room, screaming in pain from a broken jaw. I can also give an example of what happens to my low back pain when I am in an especially good mood and I am out jogging. Best, David 3. TOZ asks: Does passive aggressive behavior result from All-or-Nothing Thinking? Hi David, I thought my therapist will tell me once he gets to know me that I'm passive aggressive and therefore I do things particularly anxiety disease as all or nothing black or white.  I was wondering for you not to answer my case but in general does passive aggressive attitudes or approaches result from all or nothing thinking? Thanks, Toz David’s reply. Thanks, Toz. Great question! To find out, you would have to do what I have recommended for nearly 50 years. Write down your negative thought on a piece of paper (can you do that?) and identify the distortions in it, using my lit of ten cognitive distortions. Let me know if you’ve done this. Most people refuse to do it! Warmly, david Toz replies: So I did your exercise. My thoughts were: I'm crashing.  Help I'm scared.  I'm going to die.  Help me laud.  Help me laud. Distortions:  predicting the future.  Magnification How is that? I looked up. Saw that was fine. Felt better. Then I checked my pulse.  Not too fast so okay. Toz. David’s reply to Toz, That, Toz, is totally cool! Way to go! Could also add: Emotional Reasoning. You identified two super important distortions that are always present in fear, paranoia and anxiety. Cool, cool, cool! David's comment: This is why I ask for specific examples when people ask general questions. As you can see, Toz asked about passive aggression, but his specific example turned out to be all about something entirely different: anxiety and panic. He did a great job of testing his negative thoughts with the Experimental Technique. Warmly, Rhonda, Matt,  and David

Tahn Wanders . . . and Wonders A Young Monk's Search for Peace and Happiness Today we are honored by a second visit from Tahn Pamutto, who first appeared as a podcast guest on November 4, 2024, where he described his transition from a soldier in Iraq to an ordained Buddhist monk. He also gave us a taste of Buddhist teachings, and compared them to what we to in TEAM-CBT. There were certainly a number of areas of overlap. For example, as a psychiatrist, my goal is often to help bring patients as rapidly as possible from a state of unhappiness and depression to a state of joy and enlightenment, using a number of specific psychological techniques we call TEAM-CBT. But part of this is spiritual in nature as well. Tahn’s role as an ordained Buddhist monk is similar, in part. His goal is help people who ask for guidance how to discover the cause of unhappiness, and the path to happiness, using a number of spiritual exercises, including meditation. But part of these exercises are psychological as well. Today, Tahn began by contrasting a spiritual vs a materialistic view of life, and emphasized that the materialist view cannot solve the problem of unhappiness or provide us with happiness. This is, in part, because material things are impermanent, and will all ultimately disappear. Negative feelings, like unhappiness, actually result from our thoughts--how we view the world. The world is the world, and you can accept that, or you can protest and shout angrily that things “should” be different or “shouldn’t” be the way they are, but your feelings will always result from the way you think about the world. He said that when he was growing up, all his needs were taken care of, and happiness was fleeting, so he embarked on a search for answers. Who was I, and why was I struggling with so much unhappiness? He said, “To explore and really find out who I was, I’d have to depart from my comfort. When I joined the army, it sounded great. It was all about patriotism, loyalty, honor, service, and all kinds of positive values. . . But then at some point, they say that’s time to invade this or that country, and you have to try to make that work, since you can’t challenge the mission. The Iraq war was going on, and I spend 13 months there. But if your mission is wrong, you will keep suffering, no matter how hard you try. Did the people in Iraq really want us there? Are we really doing anything that’s positive or good? And what is it that I really want to do with my life? One thing we have to recognize is two things that cannot be denied: our mortality and the existence of unhappiness. As I began to accept these two inevitable facts, I also realized that there is no quick solution, and that the reality is that our unhappiness may not end on its own. We may go to sleep, and escape for a while, but when we wake up, we will still be unhappy. We could even imagine being reincarnated and having a different body, a different religion, or living in a different time, but our suffering still won’t change. I may be a different person, but I will still be unhappy. I asked myself if and how I could train myself to accept what life brings me. . . and wondered whether is would be possible to pursue unending happiness? And if so, how would I go about it? What I do? When I was in Iraq, I applied for conscientious objector status and eventually got out on an early retirement. Then, I began looking for an experienced, humble teacher who could share their knowledge with me. I bought a backpack and some hiking shoes, and began to search so I could learn what I needed to learn. I didn’t have much knowledge of Buddhism at all at that time. I left my mother’s house in New Jersey and started walking. I walked 20 miles, but realized I was going in the wrong direction, and had to walk 20 miles back and start over, walking in the opposite direction. The first night of my journey, I got exhausted and slept on a park bench. In the middle of the night, I thought I heard loud explosions, and woke up feeling terrified, but it was just acorns falling down from the oak tree I was sleeping under. In the Army I had learned the wrong way, and that’s why I decided to search, but any old street in New Jersey probably didn’t have what I was looking for. I decided to search for the answer in Asia instead, and wandered in India, Thailand, Korea, Japan, and Taiwan. I went into Temples and Mosques. I had the romantic notion that some wise bearded man would come out of nowhere and tap on my shoulder and say, “We’ve been waiting for you, Tahn! You have finally arrived!” But it doesn’t work like that. In Thailand, there is a monastic level to society, as well as a commercial level. Thailand and Burma are certainly not perfect as countries, but have a higher than average level of happiness because the people are generous and help each other. If I wanted, I could just go and stay at a Temple. Much of their society is based on the joy of giving and receiving. People in the monastic level are living primarily on donations. I decided I wanted to become a monk. That was what I wanted to do. I learned about the importance of the “Contemplation of Death.” Most people want to avoid thinking about death. But death and the loss of all materialistic things is inevitable. You cannot avoid it, and might want to base your daily decisions on this fact. For example, you could ask yourself, “Suppose I knew that I would die this evening. What would I do today? Would I continue shopping for a couch? Or feuding with my neighbor?” If you did this contemplation every day, you might discover that you’re doing what you think you should do, rather than what you want to do. You may be pursuing materialistic goals that inevitably cause unhappiness. Let’s say you live in a small cabin, and notice some leaves on the floor. You might decide to sweep the leaves out of the cabin. Then, if you die, they will find your body on a clean floor. That would make it easy for someone else to move into the cabin. This path (the daily Contemplation of Death), he explained, is one way to get to the destination of unconditional happiness. Rhonda asked Tahn why he decided to become a teacher. He explained that he did not make that decision, but as he wandered and practiced the monastic life, people would stop and ask him questions about truth and enlightenment and the meaning of life, and so forth. Over time, he realized that because of his travels and searches, he began to gain more and more experience, and sometimes had something to offer individuals who were earlier in their journeys, and also looking for guidance. He said that the reality of being a monk is not glamourous. Our needs are really pretty minimal. We need food, shelter, clothing, and medicine if we are sick. But beyond that, the monk gets little. If you need clothes, you may have access to a pile or rags that you can sew together to make a piece of clothing, or you may have to eat the leftovers when others have finished eating. You have to learn to live on what extras might be given to you. He explained that I’ve actually been surprised by how much love and support there is in the world. I’ve been well-taken-care-of. My main interest has been to learn about the mind. Of course, we have our basic needs to survive, but what are we doing to develop spiritually? He mentioned that the monastic order is not structured, it is not a hierarchy, and you can come and go anytime you want. The Buddha accepted the strong desire of his followers to evolve into a church, as a structure to preserve the teachings, but this was a compromise. The Buddha was simply sharing something  that had already existed before he was born, something that anyone can discover, with or without a structure or system. At some point, you may say, “I quit,” and start to do what you want to do, know that your time to be alive is limited. Here are some of the questions people ask Tahn in his travels. How can I deal with my intense anger? Tahn said, "When people “find me” when I am traveling, or wandering, they often think that “this encounter was meant to happen.” He said that Buddhists do not proselytize, and there is no concept of “conversion.” He teaches people that “You are going to have to die. You’re are going to have to give it all up one day.” He asks, “What are you seeking? What is ailing you?” He tells us that the Buddha taught us the cause of all unhappiness, and how to find happiness. Anyone can find what the Buddha discovered. The goal is the cessation of unhappiness. Is never-ending happiness possible? Tahn said: We certainly know that clear days, with no clouds, are possible. The clouds are not a part of the sky, they are just droplets of moisture, and the sky is not affected by the clouds. Clouds and unhappiness are very evitable. Tahn finished by saying, “Our unhappiness is independent from our happiness.” That’s my best translation of the interview, and I’m sure I missed a lot, and misinterpreted parts as well. I do know that it was a great pleasure and honor to spend 90 minutes with Tahn. I hope you learned something and found Tahn’s story interesting. And here’s one tip that’s helped me, and it might help you on your own journey. Sometimes, when I hear a Buddhist story or teaching, it sounds nonsensical at first. I can’t “get it.” Then, a few days later, the meaning often comes, or at least A meaning, and I feel happy to have learned something kind of cool! Hope you have that experience, and apologize for any incoherence you find in the show notes, today! Warmly, Tahn, Rhonda, and David

Live work with Joshua-- The Secret of Self-Esteem I was recently a guest on the “Philosophical Weightlifting” podcast with host Joshua Gibson (link). At the end of the interview, he asked if I could give an example of some of the techniques in TEAM-CBT, so I decided to jump right into a live demonstration, in real time, which we are publishing on today’s podcast. I am very grateful to Joshua and hope you enjoy the session as much as we did! The session covers a number of topics that just about everyone can relate to, including a couple extremely common Self-Defeating Beliefs: The Achievement Addiction The Love Addiction The Inadequacy Schema (“I’m not good enough.”) It also covers some familiar territory, including the question, “Am I good enough?” It also provides an answer to the questions: “What is the secret of self-esteem,” and “what is the secret of sex appeal?” To kick things off, Joshua shares an upsetting event along with some of his negative thoughts and feelings. The upsetting event was feeling attracted to a young woman who waited on him in a restaurant, and then going to his car and wishing he’d asked for her personal information for a date. Then he courageously went back and did just that, but got shot down. Paired with this experience, his overwhelming thoughts and how strongly he believes each one are: I won’t be successful. 85% I won’t get to live the life I want to live. 70% I won’t find love. 90% I’m not attractive. 100% This is a list of Joshua’s negative feelings, and how strong each one was at the start of the session: Feeling % Now % Goal % End Anxious 95%     Sad 90%     Guilty 85%     Inadequate 90%     Lonely 90%     Embarrassed 90%     Hopeless 85%     Frustrated 70%     Angry (with self) 75%     Two things stand out when you examine this list. First, Joshua is an attractive, friendly, and personable young man hosting a popular podcast. If we didn’t have these estimates of his feelings, you would have NO WAY of knowing how he felt inside. These feelings are all very severe. So many people we greet in our daily lives are similar—looking terrific on the outside, but dying of loneliness and unhappiness within. Second, he is experiencing nine different types of similarly elevated negative feelings, and not just one negative feeling. This confirms statistical modeling I’ve done with data from the Feeling Great App. There appears to be an unknown “Common Cause” in the human psyche that activates numerous feelings simultaneously. This is like the “dark matter” of the human psyche. We can prove its existence, but don’t yet know precisely what it is! However, our goal today will be to see if we can help Joshua change the way he’s feeling, regardless of what’s causing his pain. Positive Reframing Tool Feeling Positives Frustration It has motivated me to work hard   It shows I have not given up Anxiety Keeps me from putting myself at risk   It has inspired me to face my fears and grow Sadness Shows how much I care about others   Helps me understand others who are suffering, like my mom   Shows I have high standards and high expectations Guilt Shows that I want to live up to my expectations   Shows that I have a strong moral compass Inadequacy Shows I’m honest about my flaws and eager to improve   Show I’m humble   Makes me approachable Loneliness Has helped my develop independence and autonomy   Has motivated me to reach out to close community and to create my own Embarrassment Makes me behave in socially desirable ways Hopelessness This serves as a driving force   Shows that I’m a critical and realistic thinker   Protects me from disappointment Anger (at self) Shows that I have high expectations for myself and hold myself to a nigh standard You can see Joshua’s goals for each negative feeling after we used the Magic Dial. The whole idea was to lower his negative feelings, not all the way to zero, since that would also wipe out all these positives, but lower them enough so that he would suffer less and still preserve all the many positives we listed, and more. Feelings Table with Goal column filled in Feeling % Now % Goal % End Anxious 95% 20%   Sad 90% 10-15%   Guilty 85-90% 15%   Inadequate 90% 10%   Lonely 90% 20%   Embarrassed 90% 10-15%   Hopeless 85% 20%   Frustrated 70% 20%   Angry (with self) 75% 5%   As you can see, he decided to lower all of his negative feelings if possible. Now, we’re ready for the M = Methods of TEAM-CBT. Joshua said he wanted to work on, “I’m not attractive” first. I asked Joshua how and why he came to this conclusion, since he is clearly a large and attractive guy. He confessed he had severe acne when he was an adolescent, and now has scarring that makes him look “disfigured”. Although he probably does have some scars, I asked Joshua if he thought this thought might contain some cognitive distortions. He immediately mentioned All-or-Nothing Thinking (AON). I asked Joshua to “Explain this Distortion.” Specifically, I wanted him to imagine that I was a fourth grade student, and to explain to me in simple terms WHY this thought is an example of AON, why the AON in this case is unrealistic and misleading, and why it is also unfair. He did a great job, and this reduced his belief in the thought to 50%. As an exercise, can you think of some additional distortions in this thought? Briefly stop this recording so you can write them down on a piece of paper, and then you can look at the answers at the end of the show notes. “Explain the Distortions” was an excellent first step, but it was not enough, so we went on to the Paradoxical Double Standard Technique. I played the role of a long lost identical twin or best friend who was just like Joshua. I explained that I thought I was not attractive, and asked him what he thought. He did a tremendous job, and argued that this was not really valid, and I asked if he was being honest or just trying to cheer me up. He said he was being completely honest. Then we switched into high gear, using a much more aggressive technique, the Externalization of Voices, including Self-Defense, the Acceptance Paradox, and the Counter-Attack Technique, with perhaps a couple additional techniques thrown in. He got some strong momentum and blew all four negative thoughts out of the water. We were out of time, but did take the time to rate how he felt at the end, which you can see below. Feelings Table at the End of Session Feeling % Now % Goal % End Anxious 95% 20% 0% Sad 90% 10-15% 0% Guilty 85-90% 15% 0% Inadequate 90% 10% 0% Lonely 90% 20% 0% Embarrassed 90% 10-15% 0% Hopeless 85% 20% 0% Frustrated 70% 20% 0% Angry (with self) 75% 5% 0% Answer to the quiz question above: The thought, “I’m not attractive contained many distortions in addition to AON, including: OG = Overgeneralization MF = Mental Filtering DP = Discounting the Positive MR = Mind-Reading Mag/Min = Magnification and Minimization ER = Emotional Reasoning LAB = Labeling SH = Hidden Should Statement SB = Self-Blame I was extremely grateful and honored to be a guest on Joshua’s wonderful podcast, Philosophical Weightlifting, and invited him to join our Tuesday psychotherapy training class at Stanford because of his work in coaching. If you are a mental health professional, including a therapist or coach, contact me and let me know! The classes are two hours weekly and free of charge, although some course materials are required. Thank you so much, Joshua, for sharing your “inner self” with me and all of your and our podcast fans! And thank you, all of you, for listening or watching today! Rhonda, Joshua and David The following is an awesome email I received from Jason Meno right after he listened to the Joshua session. Hey there! I just finished listening to the last hour segment of David's "Philosophical Weightlifting" podcast episode with Joshua Gibson (it starts at about 1:13:52). It was fun to see a 45-minute TEAM session in action. I thought the Externalization of Voices (EoV) that was done here that seemed to work really well, really fast. It also highlighted a lot of complex dynamics that I see David use a lot. Here's my analysis of what went down and what I think we can learn from it: Joshua's attack: Joshua's negative thought was "I'm not attractive", but when it came time for him to attack, he said, "You know Joshua, you are disfigured and because of that you're unlovable and that's an unavoidable thing you're going to have to deal with." This attack is a lot more powerful than just the thought "You're not attractive." It digs into hurtful labels, hopelessness, and frustration. When you are in the position of roleplaying as the negative voice, there's often new and subtle dimensions that come out of it. Right now we are making it easy for the user to attack the AI by just printing out their negative thoughts, but I think letting the attack be more dynamic would be a lot better. David uses Be Specific: "Can you tell me in what way I'm disfigured?" I REALLY like Be Specific. It sets things up very well. I'd love to do this as part of the EoV formula. Joshua answers: "Yes, so you had acne growing up and now you have scars as a result and that makes you look different from everyone else." David uses Paradoxical Acceptance / Humorous Magnification: "Well, thank you, wise guru. I'm enlightened now and see that I'm some kind of ugly monster who's going to scare all the women in the United States. But what you're saying is a lot of horseshit, and you know it." David's sarcastic tone belittles the negative voice's criticism, which also lightens up the absurd magnification that follows. He then quickly rejects the absurd and flows into healthy acceptance following this. David uses Straightforward Acceptance: "But it's true I'm not perfect, and I did have acne, and I do have scars, and there there's plenty of Hollywood movie stars who have some kind of fantastic looks." There's something very powerful about going from the absurd magnification into this healthy acceptance. It's kind of like framing the horrifying absurd with the moderately painful truth makes the truth a lot easier to accept. David uses Defense: "I have a lot about me that's attractive that I can be proud of, including my love, my humility. I've built a tremendous body that 99% of men would be the envy of, and 100% of women would love to touch and fondle." The self-compassion and focusing on specific strengths and pride in accomplishments seems to a very effective defense. There's also a little magnification and humor going on here too that works well. This is a lot stronger than a lot of defenses I see where people just say the thought is being distorted or unfair. David sets up the Counter-Attack Technique: "But there is one thing that's very, very unattractive about me that you didn't mention." Joshua asks: "What's that?" David uses the CAT: "That's that effing crappy voice in my head belittling me and constantly putting me down. And when I'm not listening to you, I'm feeling pretty damn happy. So, to quote the Buddha and Jesus alike, shut the f up." One of the things that seems to make the CAT really effective is when you can take the negative voice's criticism and throw it right back at the negative voice itself. In this case, the negative voice is the real unattractive quality. Awesome work David, and I'd love try out this EoV framework in the app. Best, Jason Roughly one week after the session with Joshua, Rhonda and David interviewed him for his reflections on the session and an update on how he's doing now. He said: I've reflected a lot on this, and what has changed for me. There were many things that impacted me, but positive reframing was a game-changer. For example, if I get anxious, I welcome the feeling, and tell myself, "This anxiety will help me with this project." I was getting a tattoo, and it hurt, so I told myself, "I'm glad it hurts. This pain protects my body." And, of course, people with leprosy lose the ability to feel pain, and the consequences are disastrous and tragic. He continued, I have become more accepting, and talk openly about my appearance. I've had the courage to face that fear. The theme of my life has been, "I'm not good enough." But now I remind myself that I've done all kinds of cool stuff. For example, I coached several people into the top five in the United States in power lifting. I'm way less self-critical now. I visited, and loved, the Tuesday group at Stanford. I didn't judge myself but just jumped in and did what I could do! We concluded the session with some Relapse Prevention Training, using Externalization of Voices to challenging his previous negative thoughts, including the thoughts he will have when he relapses. such as I'm not good enough. I'm a hopeless case. The therapy didn't work on me because I'm different. I'm a hopeless case. We used Externalization of Voices with role-reversals, and Joshua won "huge!" His final response was, "There's pain and joy in life. I'll feel joy and love!" Thank you for listening today. We hope you enjoy the intensely personal work with Joshua. Let us know what you think, and if it touched you if you've ever felt like you weren't "good enough!" Warmly, Joshua, Rhonda, and David