Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy

Episode 515: Ask David

Parenting Meltdowns, Real-Time TEAM-CBT, and When Negative Thoughts Won't Stop
What do you do when your child has a public meltdown—and you feel your own frustration rising just as quickly?
And what if your mind feels so overwhelmed with anxious or depressive thoughts that completing a Daily Mood Log seems impossible?
In this Ask David episode, Dr. David Burns is joined by host Kevin Cornelius, LMFT, and Psychiatrist/TEAM-CBT therapist Dr. Matt May to answer two thoughtful listener questions that many parents and therapy enthusiasts will recognize. Together, they demonstrate TEAM-CBT techniques live, showing not only what to do, but how to think differently in the moment.
Along the way, they explore why changing your relationship with your own thoughts is often more important than trying to control other people's behavior.
In This Episode
Question 1: How Do I Use TEAM-CBT in Real Time When My Child Has a Meltdown?
A listener describes taking his two young sons to the driving range when one child suddenly wants to leave while the other wants to stay. As frustration mounts, so do the automatic thoughts:
"He's being a brat."
"He's too immature for this."
"He's ungrateful and whines all the time."
Although the listener can challenge these thoughts later using a Daily Mood Log, he wonders:
How can I use TEAM-CBT in the middle of an emotionally charged parenting moment?
David, Kevin, and Matt explore this question through several live demonstrations.
Topics Include:
Why self-compassion comes before effective parenting
The danger of "should" statements directed at yourself
How beating yourself up actually makes it harder to respond compassionately
Why practice outside emotional moments prepares you for success inside emotional moments
Accepting your own imperfections as a parent
Matt demonstrates how to respond to his own inner critic using Externalization of Voices, replacing self-criticism with realistic self-acceptance instead of perfectionism.
Challenging "Shoulds" About Other People
The conversation then shifts to another common trap: Trying to make other people different than they are.
Together they examine several automatic thoughts parents commonly experience:
"He's being a brat."
"He's too immature."
"He's ungrateful."
David helps Matt and Kevin identify the cognitive distortions hiding inside these thoughts, including:
Labeling
Hidden should statements
Unrealistic expectations
Blaming
Rather than arguing intellectually, they demonstrate TEAM-CBT methods such as:
Acceptance Paradox
Self-Defense
Counterattack
Externalization of Voices
The discussion highlights an important insight:
Much of our emotional suffering comes not from other people's behavior—but from insisting they should be different than they are.
Kevin shares a personal story about using the Feeling Great app's Paradoxical Magnification exercise to dissolve his own "should" statements about parenting through humor and acceptance.
Question 2: What If My Mind Never Stops Producing Negative Thoughts?
The second listener has struggled with depression and anxiety since adolescence.
Although he believes in TEAM-CBT, he finds the Daily Mood Log overwhelming because his mind produces what feels like hundreds of negative thoughts every minute.
His questions include:
How long should I spend on a Daily Mood Log?
Do I need to answer every negative thought?
Why can't I create positive thoughts that actually feel believable?
David's Advice
Dr. Burns explains that:
10–20 minutes of Daily Mood Log work is usually enough.
You do not need to answer every negative thought.
Most automatic thoughts are simply variations of a handful of core beliefs.
Consistent practice matters much more than perfection.
Using his own recovery after recent surgery as an example, David reminds listeners that small, steady efforts often produce remarkable long-term change.
Helpful TEAM-CBT Strategies Discussed
Kevin describes how simply sitting down with the Daily Mood Log often quiets his racing mind and helps him focus on what truly matters.
David recommends another powerful exercise:
Negative Practice
Instead of fighting racing thoughts:
Schedule a few minutes.
Record every negative thought without challenging them.
Then listen back to the recording.
Many people discover that simply hearing their thoughts aloud changes their relationship to them.
Matt also emphasizes several uncovering techniques that help identify the deeper beliefs generating so many automatic thoughts, including:
The What-If Technique
Individual Downward Arrow
Cost-Benefit Analysis
Positive Reframing
Rather than trying to "think positively," TEAM-CBT first helps eliminate the hidden resistance that makes positive thoughts difficult to believe.
A Quick Speed Round
Near the end of the episode, David introduces a new experiment:
Rapid-fire Ask David answers.
In just thirty seconds, he explains one of the central concepts from Feeling Great:
The Four Deaths of the Self
The death of the Special Self (depression)
The death of the Fearful Self (anxiety)
The death of the Angry, Blaming Self (relationship conflict)
The death of the Entitled Pleasure-Seeking Self (habits and addictions)
David explains that each "death" ultimately reveals something surprising:
There was never anything essential to lose—only freedom to gain.
Listener Feedback
The team asks for your input:
Would you rather hear:
Longer, in-depth discussions of just a few questions?
Faster "speed round" answers covering many listener questions?
Let them know through this week's listener survey.
Resources Mentioned
Feeling Great by Dr. David Burns
The Feeling Great App
Episode 507: Mastering the Daily Mood Log: Small Details, Life-Changing Results
Daily Mood Log
Memorable Takeaways
Self-compassion is often the first step toward becoming the parent you want to be.
Your emotional suffering usually comes from your thoughts—not from other people's behavior.
You don't need to defeat every negative thought to feel dramatically better.
Practice emotional skills when you're calm so they're available when emotions run high.
Small, consistent Daily Mood Log work can create profound change over time.
As always, thank you for listening to the Feeling Good Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, leave a review, and send us your questions—you just might hear them discussed on a future Ask David episode.
Contact Information
You can reach Matt May, MD @ https://www.matthewmaymd.com
Kevin Cornelius, LMFT is a Level 5 Certified Master TEAM-CBT Therapist and Trainer and the Clinical Director of Feeling Good Institute--Silicon Valley. He specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, relationship problems and insomnia. You can reach Kevin at kevin@feelinggoodinstitute.com and visit his website at www.tools4change.me.
You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com.
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514: Ask David w/ Dr. Matt May
Schizophrenia, Resistance, TEAM's Future, and What Makes a Great Therapist
In this thought-provoking Ask David episode, Dr. David Burns is joined by Kevin Cornelius, LMFT, and special guest Dr. Matt May, psychiatrist, TEAM-CBT therapist, and longtime colleague of Dr. Burns. Together, they tackle challenging listener questions about schizophrenia, emotional suffering, resistance to change, therapist training, and the future of psychotherapy.
Along the way, the conversation becomes deeply personal as David reflects on the qualities that shaped the development of TEAM-CBT, his hopes and concerns for the future of psychotherapy, and the lessons he's learned after decades of clinical work.
Our Special Guest: Dr. Matt May
Kevin welcomes Dr. Matt May back to the podcast. Matt is a psychiatrist trained at Stanford who has worked closely with David for more than twenty years. Although trained in psychiatry, Matt explains that his work today focuses almost entirely on TEAM-CBT rather than medication management.
David praises Matt as one of the most gifted therapists he has ever known, highlighting his warmth, compassion, humility, and clinical expertise.
Question #1: Can TEAM-CBT Help the Negative Symptoms of Schizophrenia?
A listener asks whether TEAM-CBT can help with the so-called "three A's" of schizophrenia:
Apathy
Avolition (severe lack of motivation)
Anhedonia (loss of pleasure)
or whether medication is the primary treatment.
David's Response
David challenges the assumptions behind the question itself.
Rather than viewing people through the lens of diagnostic labels and symptoms, he emphasizes that TEAM-CBT begins by asking:
"What would you like help with?"
He argues that therapists often fall into the trap of acting like experts who believe they already know what a patient needs based on a diagnosis. TEAM-CBT takes the opposite approach, focusing on the individual person's goals, struggles, and hopes.
David shares an early experience treating a patient with schizophrenia. Initially, he tried to challenge the patient's delusional beliefs directly through cognitive techniques. When the patient simply reinterpreted the evidence to support the delusion, David realized he was pursuing his own agenda rather than the patient's.
The lesson:
TEAM-CBT focuses on helping people with the problems they want help with—not on treating diagnostic labels.
Key Takeaways
Diagnosis does not define the person.
People with schizophrenia may still want help with relationships, mood, habits, goals, or self-esteem.
Effective therapy begins with understanding what matters to the individual.
Humility is often more helpful than expertise.
Question #2: What About Trauma, Brain Circuits, and "Underlying Vulnerabilities"?
A listener asks whether present-moment thoughts are only part of the picture and whether deeper emotional circuitry, stress physiology, or network-level brain changes also contribute to emotional suffering.
The listener also wonders whether cognitive therapy truly processes emotions like grief, fear, shame, and anger—or merely suppresses them.
Matt's Perspective
Matt offers a practical example from his own life.
One afternoon he found himself flooded with depressive thoughts and self-critical feelings. He suddenly felt hopeless, inadequate, and discouraged.
Then he realized:
He had skipped lunch and was extremely hungry.
After eating, the negative thoughts disappeared.
His point is that physical states matter. Sleep deprivation, poor nutrition, illness, intoxication, and other biological factors can influence how easily negative thoughts arise and how difficult they are to challenge.
David's Perspective
David distinguishes sharply between:
Healthy negative emotions
Distorted emotional suffering
He revisits a story from his medical school years, describing the death of a beloved elderly patient whose family gathered around him during his final moments.
Everyone cried.
David cried too.
But that sadness was not depression.
The grief emerged naturally from loving thoughts and genuine loss.
In contrast, depression is fueled by distorted thoughts such as:
"I'm worthless."
"I'm not good enough."
"Things will never get better."
TEAM-CBT seeks to eliminate distorted suffering while preserving healthy human emotions.
Key Takeaways
Healthy grief is not a disorder.
TEAM-CBT does not suppress genuine emotions.
Depression, anxiety, shame, and hopelessness often arise from distorted thoughts that can be transformed.
Biological factors matter, but thoughts remain a powerful therapeutic target.
Question #3: What's the Biggest Misunderstanding Therapists Have About TEAM-CBT?
A listener asks:
When teaching clinicians, what misunderstanding should be corrected first?
The belief that resistance means the patient is difficult?
Or the belief that techniques alone are enough?
David's Answer
David emphasizes that TEAM is a system:
Testing → Empathy → Agenda Setting → Methods
Many therapists focus immediately on techniques and interventions.
But before methods can work:
The therapist must develop genuine empathy.
The therapist must uncover resistance to change.
Without empathy, patients don't feel understood.
Without addressing resistance, therapists often end up arguing with their patients.
David explains that people usually have many good reasons not to change. TEAM-CBT helps bring those reasons into awareness and resolve them before attempting intervention.
Matt's Answer
Matt reflects on his own training with David.
He recalls spending countless hours learning empathy and discovering how difficult it is not to jump in with advice, reassurance, or premature solutions.
According to Matt:
Most therapists are tempted to help too quickly.
Many accidentally create resistance by pushing for change.
Understanding resistance is often one of the most challenging skills to master.
Kevin's Perspective
Kevin notes that TEAM itself naturally provides the roadmap:
First learn testing.
Then learn empathy.
Then learn agenda setting.
Only afterward focus on methods.
The sequence protects therapists from moving too quickly into problem-solving.
Question #4: What Is the Future of TEAM-CBT?
A listener named Vlad writes a heartfelt letter reflecting on the transition from Rhonda Barovsky's co-hosting role and asking:
What is the future of TEAM-CBT?
How might it evolve?
What personal qualities allowed David to create such an influential therapeutic framework?
David on the Future of TEAM
David explains that much of his current work focuses on preserving and sharing TEAM-CBT for future generations.
Examples include:
Recorded therapy sessions
Training materials
His psychotherapy eBook
Psychology Today articles
The Feeling Good Podcast
The Feeling Great app
He hopes future therapists will continue refining, expanding, and improving the methods.
At the same time, David expresses disappointment that many mental health professionals have shown limited interest in approaches that emphasize rapid, measurable change.
He remains committed to the possibility that therapy can become far more effective than it is today.
The Personal Qualities Behind TEAM-CBT
Matt identifies several characteristics he believes contributed to David's success:
Intense Curiosity
David never accepted conventional wisdom simply because others believed it.
He continually asked:
"What actually works?"
Intellectual Honesty
David consistently measures outcomes and learns from failures rather than defending cherished theories.
Humility
Rather than seeing himself as the expert, David allows patients to become his teachers.
Compassion
According to Matt, David's genuine concern for human suffering gives life to the science.
Grit and Persistence
David spent decades refining techniques, collecting data, developing tools, and challenging accepted assumptions.
Discussion of AI and the Future of Therapy
The conversation also touches on the Feeling Great app and artificial intelligence.
David explains that the app was designed to deliver many TEAM-CBT principles to people who might not otherwise have access to therapy.
He remains hopeful that technology can help make effective treatment more widely available while preserving the human values at the heart of psychotherapy.
Memorable Themes from This Episode
People are more important than diagnoses.
Healthy sadness is different from depression.
Empathy comes before technique.
Resistance is not a problem—it is information.
Great therapists remain curious and humble.
Real innovation begins with measuring outcomes.
Compassion and science work best together.
Resources Mentioned
Feeling Great App
Psychology Today articles by David Burns
Episode 49 featuring Marilyn's transformational session
Listener Survey
We'd love to hear from you!
Your feedback helps shape future episodes and allows us to create content that is as helpful and meaningful as possible. Please use this link to take the feedback survey and share your thoughts with us about this episode.
Your voice matters—and as David points out in this episode, sometimes the most important conversations begin when we're willing to express what we're really thinking and feeling.
Thank you for listening to The Feeling Good Podcast!
Contact Information
You can reach Matt May, MD @ https://www.matthewmaymd.com
Kevin Cornelius, LMFT is a Level 5 Certified Master TEAM-CBT Therapist and Trainer and the Clinical Director of Feeling Good Institute--Silicon Valley. He specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, relationship problems and insomnia. You can reach Kevin at kevin@feelinggoodinstitute.com and visit his website at www.tools4change.me.
You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com.
Feeling down in these turbulent times? Take a ride on our Feeling Great app.
Feeling Great feels wonderful!
You owe it to yourself to feel GREAT!
Give the Greatest Gifts of ALL--Love and Happiness!

Grandma's Snake Phobia
The Real Cause of Her Anxiety
Hosts:
Kevin Cornelius, LMFT
Dr. David Burns
What if anxiety isn't the problem?
What if anxiety is actually a message?
In this fascinating episode, Dr. David Burns and Kevin Cornelius explore one of the most intriguing concepts in TEAM-CBT: the Hidden Emotion Technique. Using the memorable case of "Grandma's Snake Phobia," David explains why some forms of anxiety persist despite cognitive techniques, exposure exercises, and logical reassurance—and how uncovering an unrecognized emotional truth can sometimes lead to astonishingly rapid recovery.
David shares the story of an elderly woman who suddenly developed a crippling fear of snakes despite spending her entire life comfortably around them. While most therapists might have focused on treating the phobia itself, David suspected that the anxiety was serving another purpose entirely.
As the conversation unfolds, listeners learn how anxiety can function as a symbolic message from the subconscious mind, drawing attention to feelings, needs, conflicts, or desires that have been pushed out of awareness.
David also shares the remarkable story of the patient whose panic attacks and nausea at work led him to first discover the Hidden Emotion Technique, as well as a deeply personal story involving his own struggle with anxiety and professional conflict.
Along the way, David and Kevin discuss why highly anxious people are often some of the kindest and most compassionate individuals, how "niceness" can sometimes fuel anxiety, and why learning to honor our feelings may be one of the most important steps toward recovery.
In This Episode
Why traditional cognitive and behavioral approaches sometimes only partially relieve anxiety
The origins of the Hidden Emotion Technique
The surprising connection between anxiety and excessive "niceness"
Why anxiety may be a symbolic message rather than a malfunction
The case of Grandma's sudden snake phobia
How unspoken fears about aging and dependence fueled anxiety
Why simply becoming aware of a hidden emotion is not enough
The critical action step that completes the Hidden Emotion Technique
The story of the young woman whose job was literally making her sick
How suppressed dreams and unexpressed desires can trigger anxiety symptoms
David's personal experience discovering a hidden source of anxiety in his own life
The role of conflict avoidance, people-pleasing, and "emotophobia"
Why the hidden emotion is almost always happening in the present—not buried in childhood
How anxious symptoms often function as symbolic clues to what's really wrong
Practical ways to begin exploring hidden emotions in your own life
Key Insights from David
"Anxiety is our subconscious mind trying to get our attention and tell us something important that our conscious minds can't seem to see."
"The ultimate fear in anxiety is often the fear of your own feelings."
"Only nice people develop anxiety disorders."
"The hidden emotion isn't the fear itself. The fear is conscious. The hidden emotion is the feeling you believe you're not supposed to have."
"Anxiety never comes out of the blue. It comes from our lives and our hearts."
The Hidden Emotion Technique: Two Essential Steps
Step 1: Discover the Hidden Emotion
Identify the feeling, desire, conflict, or unmet need that has been pushed out of conscious awareness.
Common examples include:
Anger that feels unacceptable
Unexpressed disappointment
A desire you feel guilty about wanting
Conflict you're avoiding
A dream you've abandoned
A need you're afraid to ask for
Step 2: Take Action
Recovery occurs when you:
Express the avoided feeling honestly
Address the underlying problem directly
Have the difficult conversation you've been avoiding
Honor the need or dream you've been neglecting
As David emphasizes, insight alone rarely eliminates anxiety. The transformation occurs when awareness is followed by action.
Why "Nice" People Often Struggle with Anxiety
David describes a pattern he has observed repeatedly throughout his career:
Many anxious individuals:
Want everyone to be happy
Avoid conflict at all costs
Feel responsible for others' feelings
Believe they should never feel angry
Fear disappointing people
Suppress their own needs and desires
When these feelings remain hidden, anxiety can emerge as a signal that something important needs attention.
Questions for Reflection
Is there something important you're not telling someone?
Are you avoiding a conflict because you don't want to upset anyone?
Have you been ignoring a dream, desire, or need that matters deeply to you?
Do your anxiety symptoms seem symbolic in any way?
Is there a feeling you've decided you're "not supposed" to have?
Resources Mentioned
Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy by David Burns
When Panic Attacks by David Burns
David's recent Psychology Today article, "Grandma's Snake Phobia: The Real Cause of Her Anxiety"
Listener Survey
We'd love to hear from you!
Your feedback helps shape future episodes and allows us to create content that is as helpful and meaningful as possible. Please use this link to take the feedback survey and share your thoughts with us about this episode.
Your voice matters—and as David points out in this episode, sometimes the most important conversations begin when we're willing to express what we're really thinking and feeling.
Thank you for listening to The Feeling Good Podcast!
Contact Information
Kevin Cornelius, LMFT is a Level 5 Certified Master TEAM-CBT Therapist and Trainer and the Clinical Director of Feeling Good Institute--Silicon Valley. He specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, relationship problems and insomnia. You can reach Kevin at kevin@feelinggoodinstitute.com and visit his website at www.tools4change.me.
You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com.
Feeling down in these turbulent times? Take a ride on our Feeling Great app.
Feeling Great feels wonderful!
You owe it to yourself to feel GREAT!
Give the Greatest Gifts of ALL--Love and Happiness!

The Myth of Slow Healing
Why Rapid Recovery Is Possible
Featuring Dr. David Burns and Kevin Cornelius, LMFT
Many people believe emotional healing takes months—or even years. Therapists are often trained to expect gradual progress, and patients may assume lasting change requires prolonged struggle.
But what if that assumption is wrong?
In this episode, Dr. David Burns challenges one of the most deeply entrenched beliefs in mental health: the idea that meaningful psychological recovery must happen slowly.
Drawing from his recent Psychology Today article, The Myth of Slow Healing, Dr. Burns explains why rapid emotional change is not only possible—it may actually reflect how the human brain naturally works.
Through powerful clinical stories, personal reflections, and decades of research, Dr. Burns describes how depression, anxiety, panic, shame, and hopelessness can sometimes disappear in a matter of minutes when people discover and challenge the distorted thoughts driving their suffering.
What Inspired This Article?
Dr. Burns begins by sharing a formative experience from his psychiatric residency in Philadelphia.
As a young psychiatrist, he noticed something troubling: psychotherapy often seemed to continue indefinitely, yet measurable recovery was rarely discussed. Therapists relied heavily on intuition, but almost no one was systematically measuring whether patients were actually improving.
A walk through Fairmount Park sparked an insight that would transform his career.
Thinking about professional basketball players improving through constant feedback—seeing whether the ball goes through the hoop—he wondered:
How can therapists improve if they never measure whether their sessions are helping?
This question led him to become one of the earliest advocates for routine outcome measurement in psychotherapy, eventually helping shape the development of TEAM-CBT's session-by-session assessment system.
The Importance of Measurement
Dr. Burns discusses his early use of the Beck Depression Inventory and the surprising lessons it taught him.
Again and again, he discovered that his assumptions about how patients felt were often wrong:
Some patients appeared severely depressed but reported relatively mild symptoms.
Others seemed cheerful and functional while scoring in the severe range.
These experiences reinforced an important lesson:
Therapists need data, not guesses.
By measuring depression, anxiety, empathy, and therapeutic effectiveness during every session, therapists can receive the feedback necessary to improve their work and help patients more effectively.
The Caveman Effect: Why the Brain Can Change Instantly
One of the episode's most memorable concepts is what Dr. Burns calls the "Caveman Effect."
Borrowing an illustration from neuroscientist Mark Noble, he describes a prehistoric human hearing a twig snap behind him at dusk.
The caveman immediately thinks:
"A tiger is behind me!"
Instantly, fear surges.
Then he turns around and discovers the sound came from his wife stepping on a branch.
In that moment, his fear vanishes.
Not gradually.
Not over six months.
Instantly.
Dr. Burns argues that this illustrates a fundamental principle:
Thoughts create emotions.
When a frightening thought is believed, anxiety emerges.
When that thought is no longer believed, anxiety disappears.
This process can happen in seconds.
Three Levels of "Shortness"
Dr. Burns describes three different ways emotional healing can occur rapidly.
1. Therapy Can Be Brief
Many patients experience dramatic improvements within a single two-hour session.
Rather than expecting treatment to continue indefinitely, Dr. Burns often approaches therapy with the goal of achieving complete symptom remission as quickly as possible.
2. Breakthroughs Often Happen in Minutes
Even within a session, the most important change frequently occurs during a short window—sometimes only a few minutes long.
Once therapists identify the specific distorted thoughts maintaining the problem and apply an effective intervention, major shifts can happen quickly.
3. The Moment of Enlightenment
The most dramatic change often occurs in a matter of seconds.
This is the moment when someone suddenly sees:
Their negative belief isn't true.
They've been deceiving themselves.
A different perspective is possible.
When this realization occurs, emotions can shift almost instantly.
Dr. Burns compares this experience to the caveman discovering there was never a tiger at all.
Why People Resist the Idea of Rapid Recovery
If rapid healing is possible, why do so many people reject the concept?
Dr. Burns identifies several reasons:
For Patients
Many people have spent years struggling with depression or anxiety.
The idea that change could happen quickly may sound unrealistic or even fraudulent.
After repeated disappointments, hope itself can feel dangerous.
For Therapists
Rapid recovery also challenges many traditional assumptions about psychotherapy.
It raises uncomfortable questions:
Why aren't outcomes being measured?
Why do some treatments continue for years without substantial change?
What happens to a therapist's business model when patients recover quickly?
Dr. Burns and Kevin discuss how financial incentives can sometimes unintentionally reinforce longer treatments, even when faster recovery may be possible.
The Story of Terry: Ten Years of Panic Gone in One Session
One of the episode's most powerful moments is Dr. Burns' retelling of Terry's story.
Terry suffered from:
Severe depression
Crippling panic attacks
Nearly ten years of unsuccessful treatment
Her symptoms were extreme, with depression and anxiety scores among the highest Dr. Burns had ever seen.
The key breakthrough came when he identified the specific thought driving her panic:
"I'm about to have a heart attack."
Using an experimental technique, Dr. Burns intentionally helped Terry induce panic symptoms in session.
Then he challenged her catastrophic belief through direct experience.
If she were truly having a heart attack:
Could she jog in place?
Could she exercise vigorously?
Could she do jumping jacks?
As Terry performed increasingly strenuous activity, she suddenly realized the absurdity of her belief.
Then came the breakthrough moment.
She laughed.
The fear disappeared.
And a decade of panic ended.
The episode emphasizes that it was not the jumping jacks themselves that created recovery.
It was the moment she stopped believing the distorted thought.
Why Thoughts Matter
Dr. Burns revisits three core principles of cognitive therapy:
Principle 1
Your emotions result from your thoughts—not directly from events.
Principle 2
The thoughts creating depression and anxiety are typically distorted.
Common distortions include:
All-or-nothing thinking
Fortune telling
Emotional reasoning
Mind reading
Self-blame
Principle 3
The moment you stop believing a distorted thought, your emotions will change.
This principle remains central to TEAM-CBT and forms the foundation for many rapid recoveries.
Beyond Cognition: The Role of Motivation
Later in the discussion, Dr. Burns explains that distorted thoughts are only part of the story.
Another critical factor is motivation.
People often have powerful reasons for holding onto painful feelings.
Depression, anxiety, anger, guilt, and shame frequently reflect important personal values.
For example:
Perfectionism may reflect high standards.
Guilt may reflect a strong conscience.
Anxiety may reflect caring deeply about others.
Rather than arguing patients out of their symptoms, TEAM-CBT often begins by exploring what those symptoms reveal about the person's strengths and values.
Benny's Story: The Power of Acceptance
To illustrate this paradoxical approach, Dr. Burns shares the story of Benny.
Benny was:
Suicidal
Violent
Deeply depressed
Involved in gangs, drugs, and crime
Rather than confronting Benny's hopelessness, Dr. Burns did something unexpected.
He explored all the advantages of believing:
"I'm a hopeless case."
Together they listed the benefits:
Status
Power
Money
Protection
Identity
For the first time, Benny felt understood rather than judged.
Then his defenses collapsed.
He revealed a lifetime of hidden pain, including witnessing his grandfather's suicide and struggling with illiteracy.
The story illustrates a central paradox of TEAM-CBT:
People often change only after they feel completely accepted exactly as they are.
What Dr. Burns Has Learned About Human Nature
After decades of witnessing rapid recovery, Dr. Burns says one conclusion feels increasingly clear:
Thoughts create emotions.
Yet he also emphasizes a deeper question:
Why do some people generate so many painful thoughts in the first place?
His answer increasingly involves:
Core values
Motivation
Human meaning
Personal strengths that become exaggerated
Understanding both cognition and motivation has become essential to creating lasting change.
Key Takeaways
Emotional healing does not require months or years.
The brain is capable of extraordinarily rapid change.
Thoughts—not events themselves—create emotions.
Distorted thoughts fuel depression and anxiety.
When distorted thoughts lose their credibility, emotions often change immediately.
Measurement and feedback are critical to effective therapy.
Motivation and personal values play a major role in emotional suffering.
Acceptance often creates more change than persuasion.
Recovery can happen much faster than most people realize.
Resources Mentioned
Feeling Good by David D. Burns
Intensive Therapy at Feeling Good Institute
The Psychology Today article: The Myth of Slow Healing
The video demonstration of Terry's panic attack treatment
Coming Next Episode
Dr. Burns and Kevin continue the conversation with a fascinating discussion of:
"Grandma's Snake Phobia: The Real Cause of Her Anxiety"
You'll learn about the Hidden Emotion Model and discover why the apparent cause of anxiety is sometimes very different from the true cause.
We'd Love Your Feedback
Your feedback helps shape future episodes.
Please take a moment to complete the brief listener survey linked here. It takes less than two minutes and provides invaluable guidance for improving the podcast and helping more people learn these powerful tools for recovery.
Contact Information
Kevin Cornelius, LMFT is a Level 5 Certified Master TEAM-CBT Therapist and Trainer and the Clinical Director of Feeling Good Institute--Silicon Valley. He specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, relationship problems and insomnia. You can reach Kevin at kevin@feelinggoodinstitute.com and visit his website at www.tools4change.me.
You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com.
Feeling down in these turbulent times? Take a ride on our Feeling Great app.
Feeling Great feels wonderful!
You owe it to yourself to feel GREAT!
Give the Greatest Gifts of ALL--Love and Happiness!

Shame Attacking: A Surprising Cure for Social Anxiety
Hosts:
Kevin Cornelius, LMFT
Dr. David Burns
Episode Summary
Many people believe social anxiety is caused by low self-esteem, poor social skills, or awkwardness. But what if the real culprit is shame?
In this episode, Dr. David Burns and Kevin Cornelius explore one of the most powerful—and unconventional—tools for overcoming social anxiety: Shame Attacking Exercises.
Drawing from Dr. Burns' recent Psychology Today article, Shame Attacking: Overcoming a Lifetime of Social Anxiety, they tell the remarkable story of Martin, a handsome young man whose intense shame about excessive sweating had left him isolated and unable to connect with others. Through a series of courageous shame-attacking exercises, Martin discovered something life-changing: the world was far kinder and less judgmental than he imagined.
Along the way, David shares how he first learned shame-attacking exercises from followers of psychologist Albert Ellis and describes his own unforgettable experience of asking strangers in a crowded New York restaurant if he could sample their food.
The episode highlights how bringing our perceived flaws into the open often causes shame to evaporate—much like a vampire exposed to sunlight.
In This Episode
The Origins of Shame Attacking Exercises
David's introduction to Albert Ellis's famous technique
Why therapists should never ask patients to do something they wouldn't do themselves
The surprising results of David's first shame-attacking exercise in a crowded Chinese restaurant
Martin's Story
A young man whose fear of sweating kept him trapped in loneliness
How shame—not sweating—was the real problem
A therapy session unlike any other: jogging through Philadelphia, getting intentionally soaked, and publicly announcing his "flaw"
What Happened When Martin Stopped Hiding
Why strangers responded with warmth instead of ridicule
How exposing his greatest fear challenged years of distorted beliefs
The unexpected encounter that changed his social life forever
Shame Is Like a Vampire
David introduces a memorable metaphor:
Shame survives in darkness and secrecy. When exposed to the light, it shrivels up and dies.
The discussion explores how openly acknowledging our imperfections can dramatically reduce anxiety and self-consciousness.
The Hidden Cost of Taking Ourselves Too Seriously
David and Kevin discuss:
Why humor can be a powerful antidote to social anxiety
The value of becoming more playful and less self-focused
How social anxiety often convinces us that everyone is watching and judging us when they're usually not
Guidelines for Shame Attacking Exercises
David emphasizes that shame-attacking exercises are powerful but should be used thoughtfully.
Some important principles include:
Be Respectful
Exercises should never disrupt places where people deserve peace and privacy, such as hospitals, churches, or synagogues.
Be Playful, Not Aggressive
The goal is to laugh at yourself, not make others uncomfortable or upset.
Don't Wait Until You're Ready
The breakthrough often comes when you act despite feeling anxious.
Therapists Must Lead by Example
If therapists want patients to challenge shame, they should be willing to challenge their own shame as well.
Memorable Takeaways
The problem is rarely the flaw itself—it's the hiding.
Most people are far less judgmental than we imagine.
Courage grows through action, not waiting for fear to disappear.
Humor and playfulness can dissolve shame.
Vulnerability often creates connection rather than rejection.
The world may be much friendlier than your anxiety predicts.
Featured Article
This episode is based on Dr. David Burns' Psychology Today article:
"Shame Attacking: Overcoming a Lifetime of Social Anxiety"
The article explores Martin's story in greater detail and illustrates how shame-attacking exercises can transform social anxiety by challenging both self-criticism and fears of rejection.
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Until next time, remember: the things you're most afraid to reveal about yourself may be the very things that set you free.
Contact Information
Kevin Cornelius, LMFT is a Level 5 Certified Master TEAM-CBT Therapist and Trainer and the Clinical Director of Feeling Good Institute--Silicon Valley. He specializes in the treatment of trauma, anxiety, depression, relationship problems and insomnia. You can reach Kevin at kevin@feelinggoodinstitute.com and visit his website at www.tools4change.me.
You can reach Dr. Burns at david@feelinggood.com.
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