The Biblical Mind

What if the Book of Job is not primarily about explaining suffering—but about surviving trauma?

In this episode of The Biblical Mind Podcast, Dru Johnson sits down with Old Testament scholar and licensed therapist Michelle Keener to explore the Book of Job through the lens of trauma, PTSD, lament, and healing. Drawing from her book Comfort from the Ashes, Keener argues that the long poetic sections of Job—often skipped by modern readers—may actually portray the slow process of trauma recovery rather than abstract theological debate.

Together, Dru and Michelle discuss why Job’s friends sound so much like modern Christian clichés, how churches often rush people past suffering toward “victory,” and why lament is essential to spiritual health. The conversation also explores the neuroscience of trauma, the body’s involuntary survival responses, repetition in trauma processing, and how God’s presence—not simplistic answers—brings healing in Job.

They also examine the church’s discomfort with anger, grief, and unresolved pain, asking whether modern Christians have lost the biblical language of lament found in Job and the Psalms.

This episode is a thoughtful and deeply pastoral conversation for anyone wrestling with suffering, trauma, faith, or the meaning of the Book of Job.

For Michelle Keener's latest book, buy it here:

https://www.ivpress.com/comfort-in-the-ashes

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Chapters:

00:00 Introduction to Job and Common Misunderstandings
02:08 The Movie Tree of Life as an Exposition of Job
04:07 Is Job the Oldest Book in the Bible?
05:23 The Significance of the Middle Poetry in Job
06:22 Trauma and the Messy Middle of Job
08:17 Sitting with Suffering: The Role of Lament and Honesty
09:42 Job as a Trauma Survivor and Its Modern Relevance
11:55 The Process of Healing and God's Presence
14:07 Physiological Responses to Trauma and Divine Design
16:50 Reintegration of Trauma and the Role of Narrative
19:44 The Encounter with God as Resolution
22:40 Creating Trauma-Informed Church Spaces
24:37 The Power of Honest Testimony and Lament
26:42 The Ubiquity of Trauma Talk and Its Nuances
29:48 Language of Trauma: Distress, Wounded, and Healing
33:40 Ripple Effects of Trauma on Families and Communities
36:11 How to Approach Reading Job for Deep Understanding
38:18 Interpreting Job's Final Resolution and God's Response
40:20 Theological Insights: God's Goodness and Human Suffering
41:18 Conclusion: Healing and Hope in the Biblical Narrative

In this episode, biblical scholar Jeffrey Garcia joins Dru Johnson to unpack one of the most misunderstood groups in the New Testament: the Pharisees. Prompted by recent public comments from U.S. Secretary of War Pete Hegseth, the conversation explores how the term “Pharisee” has often been used as a caricature for hypocrisy—and why that misunderstanding can contribute to anti-Jewish and anti-Semitic attitudes.

Drawing from the Gospels, Acts, ancient Judaism, and the Dead Sea Scrolls, Dr. Garcia explains that the Pharisees were not simply legalistic villains opposed to Jesus. Instead, many Pharisees shared substantial theological ground with Jesus and were actively engaged in serious debates about how to faithfully live out God’s commandments. The episode also examines how Christian preaching has historically oversimplified the Pharisees, why phrases like “Christ killer” emerged from these distortions, and how pastors and churches can teach the New Testament more responsibly today.

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Chapters:

00:00 Understanding the Pharisees: Context and Misconceptions
08:47 The Pharisees and Their Relationship with Jesus
17:45 Navigating Modern Discourse on Pharisees and Anti-Semitism

What does it truly mean to have a vocation—and how is it different from a career? In this thought-provoking conversation, Steven Garber and Dru Johnson explore the deep disconnect between faith and everyday work, challenging the dualism that separates “spiritual” callings from ordinary life.

Garber argues that vocation is not reserved for clergy or religious roles but is integral to the mission of God. Drawing from biblical theology, church history, and lived experience, the discussion highlights how modern culture often reduces calling to career success, income, or personal fulfillment—leaving many disillusioned.

Together, they unpack the tension between vocation and occupation, the myth of “doing what you love,” and the overlooked dignity of ordinary work—from parenting to manual labor. The conversation also addresses the Protestant work ethic, the confusion between money and meaning, and why younger generations struggle with career pressure and purpose.

With insights shaped by L’Abri, Hebraic thought, and a lifelong exploration of what it means to be human, Garber offers a compelling vision: true vocation is about coherence—aligning who we are with how we live in the world.

This episode is essential listening for anyone wrestling with calling, work, and the search for a meaningful life.

Dr. Garber's books can be bought here:

https://www.ivpress.com/steven-garber

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Chapters:

00:00 Understanding Vocation: Common Misunderstandings
03:03 The Role of Dualism in Vocation
04:55 Biblical Literacy and Vocation
06:41 The Protestant Work Ethic and Its Implications
12:07 The Nature of Work: Toil and Redemption
18:19 The Value of Work Beyond Monetary Gain
20:48 The Importance of Ordinary Work in the Church
24:45 Vocation vs. Occupation: Understanding the Difference
29:22 The Influence of Labrie on Personal Development
33:56 The Value of Delayed College Education
41:37 Exploring the Human Condition
47:59 The Role of Truth in Storytelling and Society

In this thought-provoking episode, Dr. Leslie Baynes explores the complex relationship between C.S. Lewis and the Bible. While Lewis is widely celebrated for his theological insight and literary brilliance, Baynes’ research uncovers a more nuanced reality—one where Lewis occasionally misquotes scripture, relies heavily on memory, and even attributes statements to Jesus that do not appear in the Gospels.

Drawing from her book Between Interpretation and Imagination: C.S. Lewis and the Bible, Baynes examines both Lewis’s profound contributions and his interpretive missteps, including his famous “liar, lunatic, or Lord” argument. 

The episode also tackles the cultural phenomenon of “Saint Lewis,” particularly among American evangelicals, and the resistance to critically evaluating his work. Yet, rather than dismissing Lewis, Baynes advocates for a balanced perspective—appreciating his literary and spiritual impact while engaging his ideas with scholarly rigor.

This episode is essential listening for anyone interested in biblical interpretation, theology, and the enduring influence of one of Christianity’s most beloved thinkers.

You can buy Dr. Baynes' book here:
https://www.eerdmans.com/9781467469708/between-interpretation-and-imagination/

 

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Chapters:

00:00 Introduction to C.S. Lewis and Evangelical Perception
03:00 The Complexity of C.S. Lewis's Legacy
05:57 Navigating Criticism in Lewis Studies
08:59 The Role of Biblical Scholars in Lewis's Work
12:06 The Trilemma: Liar, Lunatic, or Lord?
14:45 Gender Dynamics in Scholarly Critique
23:55 The Influence of Michael Ward
26:01 Critique of C.S. Lewis's Biblical Interpretation
27:15 Misquoting Jesus: The Dangers of Inaccurate Scripture
31:11 The Problem with Lewis's Scriptural Assertions
33:24 The Adulterous Woman: A Misplaced Argument
38:26 Lewis's Misunderstanding of Greco-Roman Literature
40:14 C.S. Lewis and the Chronicles of Narnia
44:30 A Hermeneutics of Love
47:23 C.S. Lewis: A Public Intellectual?

What does the Bible actually say about women in church leadership—and are we asking the wrong questions? In this episode, Dru Johnson sits down with biblical scholar Preston Sprinkle to explore the complex, often misunderstood topic of gender roles in Scripture. Drawing from his book From Genesis to Junia, Sprinkle shares his “exegetical journey,” a multi-year study that avoids predetermined conclusions and instead carefully examines key biblical texts.

Together, they challenge modern assumptions often imposed on Scripture, including Western ideas about equality, hierarchy, and leadership. The conversation highlights how women are portrayed throughout the Bible—from influential figures in the Old Testament to faithful disciples in the Gospels—and why these narratives matter for interpreting passages like 1 Timothy 2.

They also unpack how leadership functioned in the early church, revealing a more fluid and diverse structure than many assume today. Rather than offering simplistic answers, this episode invites listeners to wrestle with the full biblical witness, appreciate its complexity, and approach the conversation with humility, patience, and deeper study.

Whether you’re complementarian, egalitarian, or still exploring, this discussion offers fresh insight into one of the church’s most debated topics.

You can buy Dr. Preston Sprinkle's latest book here:

https://bakerbookhouse.com/products/9780830785803_from-genesis-to-junia?

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Chapters:

00:00 The Journey of Understanding Women in Leadership
02:58 Cultural Context and Biblical Interpretation
13:04 Women in the Old Testament vs. New Testament
18:11 Exegetical Challenges and Practical Applications
23:42 The Complexity of Prescriptive and Descriptive Narratives
25:50 Theological Rationale in Creation Order
27:39 Desire and Headship: A Deeper Look
28:09 Authority and Epistemic Roles in Relationships
29:37 Leadership Dynamics in the Early Church
32:43 Paul's Perspective on Gender Roles
36:59 Women in Paul's Ministry: A Closer Examination
40:00 Cultural Context and Gender Stereotypes
41:50 Celebrating Gender Differences in Leadership