The Creative Penn Podcast For Writers

How can you move from the starving artist mindset to becoming a creator CEO with multiple streams of income? And how can you get traction on Substack if you're starting from zero? Amy Suto shares her tips as a former Hollywood TV writer turned author, Substack creator, and ghostwriter.

In the intro, Novel November with ProWritingAid; Book Marketing in a Changing World [ALLi Podcast with me and Orna Ross]; Navigating tough times in indie publishing [Wish I'd Known Then]; watch out for fake agent emails [Write Beware]; AI-Assisted Artisan Author webinars for beginners and advanced.

Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with writing software, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 15% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn

Amy Suto is a former Hollywood TV writer and the bestselling author of books around freelance writing, as well as romance, fantasy, and detective fiction. She's also a ghostwriter and a top 25 ranked Substack creator. Her books include Write for Money and Power.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show Notes

How to take back power when your dreams are in the hands of gatekeepers

Moving from the starving artist mindset to creator CEO

The income flywheel of freelancing, a paid newsletter, and book royalties

How serialising fiction on Substack can build true fans and supercharge pre-orders

Getting traction on Substack, and how to manage comments and Notes

Using AI tools like a scalpel, and how to move past the fear of backlash

You can find Amy on her Sunstacks, Make Writing Your Job and Sutoscience.

Transcript of the interview with Amy Suto

Jo: Amy Suto is a former Hollywood TV writer and the bestselling author of books around freelance writing, as well as romance, fantasy, and detective fiction. She's also a ghostwriter and a top 25 ranked Substack creator. So welcome to the show, Amy.

Amy: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

Jo: Yes, lots to talk about. First up—

Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing.

Amy: So I came up in Hollywood as a TV writer, and I was climbing my way up the ladder, starting as an assistant, working in Los Angeles, and then eventually, finally got to start to write episodes of TV.

When I hit what I thought was my peak, I was working with a CIA agent on a spy show. It was literally my dream, to be able to pick his brain about all the conspiracies that were actually true and be able to write TV around that.

I found myself a little bit disillusioned with the way the system was running. I found that I really wanted to spend more time writing my own original work instead of being work for hire on other people's shows.

So when 2020 happened and everything shut down, I ended up being able to travel the world, ghostwrite memoirs for Olympians and CEOs, and have some crazy experiences as a digital nomad, which then inspired my first fiction book, The Nomad Detective.

From there I continued writing novels and also non-fiction books about my experience as a freelance writer, to help other authors and writers figure out how to have this balance of both being able to pay the bills as a writer while also having creative freedom to put together your own work.

Jo: I love that. I guess just to address the dream—so you hit this dream of Hollywood TV writing, which of course for some people, that's their dream and they never got there, and then you left it all.

I mean, the strength to walk away from that. So if people have that dream, or there's the dream of the eight-figure movie deal for a novelist and all this.

So can dreams end up not be the thing we really want, I guess?

Amy: This is a great question, and I think that the thing that I was running into is that I was putting my dreams in the hands of gatekeepers.

I think that when you hand over that power, then suddenly you are left without agency and you are finding yourself working for free or doing work for producers that maybe you didn't sign up for.

People are dangling your dreams in front of you to get you to do what they want you to do.

That was a little bit of what I was beginning to experience, and seeing in other writers that I was talking to in the industry. So I knew that I wanted to take back that power for myself.

I also love books. Writing novels is something that is very close to my heart and part of my own dream as a writer as well.

So when 2020 was happening and everything was shutting down and the writers' room that I was in went to a Zoom room, I thought, “This is a perfect opportunity for me to explore some of these other areas of writing.”

So basically there is this experience that I was having of remembering all of these novelists who started off as journalists, and they started off as journalists because some of the best inspiration for fiction is actually in non-fiction.

When I was starting to moonlight as a memoir ghostwriter in between projects in Hollywood, I found myself completely captivated by working with these incredible clients who've had lives that were beyond anything I could have ever imagined.

So my work as a memoir ghostwriter ended up feeding my creative work, not only being able to pay the bills with these really cool projects, but also being able to interview people about their lives and being able to understand humanity through a completely different lens.

I never would have had the experience to get flown out to Vienna and sit down with an entrepreneur who had changed the direction of the way that technology had been built in his industry, and be able to ask questions about what it was really like to be these types of people and to be in their lives and to grow up in Austria or Singapore.

So I think that memoir ghostwriting ended up being the perfect primer for me to continue to develop my work as a fiction writer, because I was able to meet so many different people I never would have had the opportunity to meet or work with or ask questions of before.

Jo: Yes, I love this empowered attitude to making your own career.

In fact, when you pitched me—and I've told you this, but for people listening—I had already bought your book, Write for Money and Power, and the reason I had bought it is, obviously, I'm a 20-year writer at this point, but it was your use of the word power.

I have not seen another writing book that says Write for Money and Power: The Anti-Starving Artist's Guide to Becoming a Seven-Figure Writer. And again, the subtitle, other people have done that.

Let's talk about power because why did you use that word, and what kind of power are you talking about?

Amy: So when I was coming up in Hollywood, a lot of the writers around me, we were all being funnelled into the gatekeepers' world for us, and the vision that other people had for us. That meant that we were giving up our power.

So when I went on this journey of being able to travel the world, and ghostwrite memoirs, and being able to write my own novels and connect with readers directly, I discovered my own sense of power.

I think that for writers, you're not really allowed to want to be able to have power over your career because it's so discouraged by gatekeepers and society. You're supposed to be a starving artist who is grateful for anything that comes your way because you get to make your art.

So I think that there's a shift happening in culture where writers are being treated not just as artists that are expected to starve, but also as creative entrepreneurs, where we're learning how to own all parts of our creative journey.

Both the creation of our books artistically, but also the marketing of them, and how we get them out into the world, and treating that like one whole entity.

I think that there's a shift happening where writers are no longer wanting to write what gatekeepers tell them to, and are wanting to be able to have unburdened creative freedom.

That's why so many authors like Brandon Sanderson end up self-publishing or independently publishing, because they want that creative power to be able to serve their fans and their readers better.

That's so cool, and it also proves the fact that even with people like Taylor Swift buying back her masters, so many people who are at the top of their game are outgrowing the gatekeepers. If they're not finding use for these older systems, then that also brings them into question for the rest of us.

Jo: I love that. Coming back to the book, so you mentioned the starving artist mindset, and in the book you also talk about the creator CEO, and I love that. I feel like I can claim those words, but I know some people listening will just find that pretty intimidating, I think.

So what do you think the process is for moving from scarcity to the more empowered author mindset?

Amy: When I first was starting my career as a writer, I never wanted to be a business person. I didn't want to look at spreadsheets, I didn't want to deal with accounting.

The thing is, if you want power over things like what does your book cover look like, or how is your book marketed, or how does your book enter the world, and even just what are the contents of what you're writing, what are the subject matters, what is actually something that gets to reach your readers?

If you want that power, then it does come with some of the other elements of being an entrepreneur, which is understanding how to price your book. There are so many interesting mechanics of bookselling, which is what I really love that you've been covering on The Creative Penn Podcast and on your blog, Joanna.

It's just so beautiful to see writers talking about the entrepreneurial side of what does it mean to sell books? How do you do it? What are the mechanics of that?

Today, with different types of technology, it's gotten easier than ever for writers to be able to do a lot of things themselves, which can feel intimidating, but then you realise how much it unlocks.

Even something as simple as, if you sell one book to a reader who likes your work, your royalty percentage can go from 10, 20, 30% to up to 70%, because you've made that switch of being able to take on the cap of CEO and being able to own a little bit more responsibility.

With that, the number of books that you need to sell to have a beautiful life as a writer immediately drops. So for me, the added responsibility was worth it because I was able to have all this freedom, being able to write on my own schedule and set my own publish dates, and not have to wait two years for a book to come out.

I could wait instead six months and pick exactly how I wanted the book to come out.

So I think it's reframing this step into becoming a creator CEO, not as a burden, but as an opportunity to flex your creative muscles in different ways, and to be able to have more flexibility in your own life on how your creative work comes out and is distributed.

Jo: Absolutely. It's so great to hear. I just feel like so much of what you say is what I've been saying for years. When I started saying it back in 2008, this was not popular, and we were considered the early indie authors.

It was considered vanity. It was considered the worst form of publishing. You were not good enough to get published. hat's not how you're talking about it, is it?

Amy: No, and I think that—

A lot of people are shifting what it means to be “self-published.”

It's not a vanity press thing. We're just seeing so many examples of people using the internet to take their work and bring it directly to fans, and understanding that there are fewer barriers than ever to getting your books into your readers' hands.

Actually working with a bunch of bureaucracy of a larger publishing house can slow you down, can dilute your ideas, and can potentially keep you from being the kind of author that has the career that you've always wanted.

So I think it's an empowerment of the creator age and the creator economy, and this ability to publish more, to publish faster, to publish more creatively, to put out bolder ideas.

So, yes, I think that you are definitely a trendsetter, and I think that that's so incredible, the trend that you were riding the wave of, and that you were originating, coming to fruition. I think that just proves that you were ahead of the curve.

Jo: Oh, well, thank you for that. I feel like one wave crested, and now we're in another wave, and we're going to circle back to technology. But just so people get a sense of your creator CEO self, what are your multiple streams of income?

How are you making your income with all these different ways of writing?

Amy: The income streams that I cover in Write for Money and Power are my own income streams as well as what I recommend for other authors, and it's a trifecta of freelancing, a paid newsletter, such as a newsletter hosted on Substack, and also income from your books and royalties related to your work as an author.

These three income streams have helped me balance this side of both creativity and also commerce and the needs of being able to pay bills, so that I can travel the world and live in beautiful cities like San Francisco, where I get to call home. These three pillars are really great because they also support each other.

If you have an audience that subscribes to your Substack or your other paid newsletter, regardless of what platform you're on, that audience can pay a subscription fee to access certain types of content, similar to platforms like Patreon.

Then you can not only get revenue from that, but that paid newsletter audience can then buy your book when your book comes out and become early readers of your book.

From there, the audience that buys your book on Substack can also serve as a point of proof for your freelancing.

So if you offer any services, like so many novelists I know offer developmental editing and things like that, then you can use the proof point of a community to become a freelancer and then sell your services that way.

So the three of them feed into each other, because then the money that you make from freelancing can fund your next book launch, or it can fund more time for you to go and write on Substack.

That flywheel is something that can help writers, and it is an alternative to what we've thought about in the past about a traditional day job, about going and working as a barista or a coffee shop worker.

There are so many other different careers that you could do, but these are nice because these three pillars feed into your future book launches and your writing as a whole, to create this holistic flywheel of income.

Jo: Yes.

I definitely think having another stream of income other than just book sales is important.

Obviously, this podcast, for example, has sponsors, and I also have a Patreon, although it's not a paid newsletter.

I think what you mean is a subscription, some kind of subscription where you have,—not guaranteed income every month—but at least more regular income every month rather than the up-and-downiness, which books are so much so.

Amy: Definitely. There are so many different models, and the paid newsletter is one that I think is becoming more attractive right now because you are able to keep all of the email addresses of everybody who signs up, and you're able to email them directly.

So compared to building an audience on Instagram or TikTok, you're able to own your email list and take that email list with you from platform to platform, so you're not dependent on these platforms.

I like the paid newsletter as a format for authors because you're able to keep people in the loop about every book and your writing process, and give them a behind-the-scenes look.

It's also just such a great format that's built for writers. On platforms like Substack, the people who are doing the best are novelists and authors and writers.

So I think it's also trying to look at the places where you already have the skill set to thrive versus having to build an entire audience on YouTube or TikTok. Some authors really take to that, but I know a lot of writers who are introverts and prefer to thrive in the written form.

So putting out a paid newsletter allows them to connect and build that fan base with their readers, and also thrive in the medium that they're already in.

Jo: Fantastic. Well, let's talk about Substack then, because you have two. I have two author names, and I know how hard it is to maintain two lots of everything.

So you've got Make Writing Your Job and Sutoscience.

So tell us about those Substacks—why two—and a bit more about using Substack in general.

Amy: Make Writing Your Job is our community for writers. We host a job board. We list different grants, contests, and residency opportunities.

We also do author interviews and try to find different ways to bring people cool resources on how to make writing their jobs, including some discounts on different products like Scrivener and things like that.

Make Writing Your Job was my first Substack that I built, and we have over 60,000 subscribers today, and we're in the top 25 of business on Substack.

I built it as a place to try to help everybody else with the concepts of my books, and then also to be connected to other freelance clients that I was too busy to work with.

So it came from a place of wanting to just empower people to make writing their job through a myriad of different ways. That's been a really exciting community to grow because it's truly become something that I'm just so proud of. We do in-person meetups in Los Angeles and other cities.

We have such a great group of people that we've been able to put together on that Substack that it became something that I'm just so grateful to have.

Then Sutoscience is my own personal Substack where I share all of the behind the scenes of what it means to be a writer and an entrepreneur, trying to figure out how to stay connected to my creativity while thinking strategically about how to grow on Substack and things like that.

So on Sutoscience, I write about the behind the scenes of everything I'm up to, and I also have a monthly mastermind group with my founding members where we all talk about this. We're basically a writers' group for what we're building on Substack and beyond with our books. So it's been fun.

The reason why I have two is because Make Writing Your Job is something I run with my husband. It's a community. It's something that I'm building in service of a larger group, whereas Sutoscience is more my personal behind the scenes.

Jo: What about serialising your fiction? Talk about that.

Amy: This is something that I was really excited to get working on this year, and it surprised me in so many different ways.

A lot of writers who have serialised fiction on Substack have promoted it as a way to just bring in tons of paid subscribers, and it's something that has unlocked so much for them.

I have found that the benefits of serialising fiction go even beyond paid subscribers. When you do the math on it, it makes a lot of sense.

When you sell a single book, then you are usually making around $6 to $7 of profit, depending on how you're publishing, who you're publishing with, if you're going direct.

If you have a Substack that's priced at around $8 a month, then if you have people sign up to read even the first few chapters, they'll read the chapters, and then if they stay subscribed, you've already out-earned what you would have made on a book.

So the math already makes a ton of sense, but the thing that really surprised me when I started serialising my novel, Let Me Be Your Ghost, on my Sutoscience Substack, was that the readers that joined me on the journey so far, because it's not completely out yet, the readers who have joined me are diehard fans.

I literally have had readers who have emailed me since the beginning when the chapters came out, telling me what they loved, telling me what they thought could be changed in the book.

Then they're promoting the book to other people, and helping me get other beta readers, and championing the book, and then being the first to pre-order it when I opened pre-orders.

So what I've built unintentionally with the serialisation is not only another audience and a different type of digital product along with the launch of the book, but I've built a way to supercharge pre-orders and also connect deeper with my true fans, with the readers who are really invested in helping me make this book the best that it can be.

Serialising fiction is also really fascinating because I'm serialising what is essentially a rough draft that will eventually morph into the final draft.

So similar to other authors that I've admired, I'm really trying to bring my community in and see what they think of this story. Does it feel like something that resonates with them?

To have people be so ardently helpful has been really incredible, and I've gotten thousands and thousands and thousands of views on the chapters. That's something that, as a fiction author, I'm so grateful for, to have those early readers, those early champions.

So far I've just been blown away by the reactions with the beta reader forms I put out. I'm going out to ARC readers this week, and my early readers have been driving that, as well as driving revenue to help me continue to spend more time on the book.

Jo: But then I guess I would argue that it doesn't matter what platform you use. If you have an audience then that process works, whatever platform you use.

At the moment, a lot of writers are jumping on Substack because they've heard that they can do things like what you're saying. But once again, they're arriving at what is now actually quite a crowded platform, and putting up some chapters of their book, whether it's fiction or non-fiction, and then they're like, “Well, nobody's here.”

So if someone is in that situation, if they're putting up their chapters or they're putting up articles or whatever, and they don't have any traction—

What are your tips for getting more traction on Substack?

Amy: The great thing about Substack—and I try to reveal these numbers as much as possible on Sutoscience—is that most of my paid subscribers, most of my total subscribers, are actually coming from Substack itself.

Substack has a lot of great built-in discovery tools, including recommendations, but also their algorithm that promotes you when somebody is signing up for someone else's Substack.

There are a lot of really clever tools that Substack has that have ended up driving a ton of readers who maybe never would have found me on any other platform. The cool thing is, I don't have to pay upfront to have those readers find me.

So a lot of the things that I break down on my Sutoscience Substack are how to make sure that your Substack is categorised correctly and shows up in discovery correctly, how to work with other Substackers on interviewing them or being interviewed on Substack Live, which then brings other people into your universe.

Substack just has all of these really cool creative tools that I haven't seen any other platform use to support writers, in part because their incentives are aligned. Substack makes a 10% cut of all paid subscriptions, and they handle so much more in the back end that you would have to pay for otherwise.

So it's really cool to be able to use their discovery tools to get in front of new readers, and the fiction category is something that is growing.

It is definitely a smaller category compared to the personal essay, how-to non-fiction categories. But I've seen that fiction has definitely been ticking up, including, most impressively, Jeff Bezos' ex-wife has been publishing her fiction on Substack.

Which I found just so interesting, that somebody who is basically a billionaire, if not a hundred-millionaire, and she has every resource on the planet to go through traditional publishing, she's picking Substack as a place to put out her work.

In part because the platform also has this brand of being very high-end, of having these journalists and these authors and these serious writers on the platform.

So you have this natural discovery of people who are coming to read War and Peace chapter by chapter on one Substack that's doing an analysis. They're reading journalists from these esteemed publications that have moved to Substack. Alongside those different incredible writers, they can discover your work as well.

So it's not going to be something that's easy to grow from zero, but I think it's really cool to be able to take your work to a platform where you already know there's an audience of really serious, interested readers that then will bring that energy to reading your work.

Jo: So if somebody does want to come over to Substack, I guess one of the things that puts me off another platform is that, for example, I don't like chatting in comments. Substack, I believe, has now got its own social network as much as anything else.

How are you managing comments on Substack versus other social media?

Amy: I feel like the common thread here, the thing that I feel as well, is that it can be overwhelming to be, “I need to be on all these social media platforms, and I have to be present. People have access to me.” That can be a lot.

So I think that Substack has to be one of those platforms where there needs to be a level of understanding what is right for you and what's not right for you.

For example, the subscriber chat feature is something that I think a lot of people would be better off just turning off and not having to worry about it.

The other feature is being able to have the comments on your posts be for paid subscribers only. So the only people that can comment on your posts are just people who have intentionally paid for your publication and want to be there.

I think that naturally gets rid of spam. It naturally gets rid of people who are lurking, or naysayers, or things like that, and it keeps it closer to a community.

The other piece of their social media platform, Substack Notes, while it can be helpful for growth, I think it doesn't have to be something you have to go all in on to see growth on Substack. I very rarely am on Substack Notes, and I'm often scheduling things ahead of time and not necessarily engaging a whole lot.

I do think that compared to other social media platforms and other places where discussions happen around writing, I've found Substack to have the most interesting conversations. Also, I've met the most fascinating people in real life from connections that I've made on Substack.

So there is this neat community and neat pool of people, but you have to be intentional about how you interact with it, in the same way you have to be intentional about how you interact with other social media platforms or other spaces online.

Jo: Yes, it's so funny, isn't it? I think it's also about what stage you are in your author career, because as you're talking there, I'm remembering the early days of Twitter. I got on Twitter in 2008, and that was the golden era of blogging and Twitter.

A lot of the friends I have in real life now, I met on Twitter, and it built my author platform in those early days. I connected with people who changed the way my career went.

That just sounds very similar, and it just feels like every couple of years, a new platform rises. And that might not be brand new. Obviously, Substack's not brand new. It's reasonably mature now. But over the last few years, I think really since the pandemic, it's grown. So I think maybe that's the tip for people.

You don't have to do all of these things, but there might be things that emerge at different points that work for you.

Amy: Definitely. I think that's a good way to think about it, because ultimately, and this is something that I'm always trying to keep track of, we are writers and we should be writing first.

All of these platforms, all these tools, they should be in service of us finding time to write creatively and write work that our readers will enjoy. Everything else is noise.

So it's trying to understand what is a distraction, what is actually getting you closer to your true fans, your true readers, and what platform features or things are just not worth it.

That, I think, is the question that we always have to ask ourselves, auditing. Is this actually useful, or is this going to be a huge time suck that I'm just going to spend doomscrolling or completely distracted from the actual core of the work that we're here to do?

Jo: Well, then I guess the question relates to what topic people should do. You're an interesting example because you have different fiction novels in different genres already. So you're obviously a multi-passionate creator, and you're not sticking with one genre. You also have this non-fiction content.

So if authors have lots of different genre books like you do, where should they start with their Substack?

What should they focus on in order to attract people who might be interested in their work?

Amy: The best advice that I have gotten, and that I've seen work for others as well, is to start with the thing that you're most excited about.

That might be, for some writers, writing about their day-to-day life. What is it like to get up and write either before work or as their full-time job? For other writers, it's writing an incredibly niche deep dive on Nicholas Sparks.

Everybody's going to have their own way into what it means to enter this space and write something for other people and to share the things that they're excited about.

There's one sci-fi author who wrote an incredibly detailed piece about the types of pens that he uses, and how different fountain pens write best on different types of paper, what type of paper, what to write with on an airplane, because with certain pens, the ink gets stuck on the airplane.

I love this idea of people coming to share the thing that they are so passionate about, and that they could write forever on.

In the niche comes the universal. So in writing about something very specific, suddenly you'll get other readers that are also fanatics of the types of pens, or different romance authors, or whatever it is.

I think that so often we try to mould ourselves to what we think people will like to read, but in reality, if we just write the things that we love, and then just tweak the framing so that it's accessible for readers, then we'll have made it, then we'll have gotten there, and our passion will shine through.

So I think that the hardest part about Substack is trying to figure out how to write the thing that you love and just package it in a way where the headline is something that will speak to the piece that you've written, and that readers will know what to expect when they land on your Substack's About page.

So you can have different multitudes. You just need to be able to walk people through it and frame it well.

That's the thing that, as somebody who's multi-passionate, who is writing all these different formats, I can come to my audience of people who are reading my non-fiction work and say, “Hey, I have a book coming out. It's called Let Me Be Your Ghost, and it's inspired by my memoir ghostwriting work.”

So I'm connecting my non-fiction work to the inspiration of my new romantic thriller book. I'm able to bridge across different audiences because I'm able to understand what they followed me for, and connect it to something that I'm doing next that I think they'll really love.

Jo: Yes, that's great. Again, it's so funny because it does resonate with the early days of blogging on WordPress and all the things we used to do, which I still do. It's really funny because it's exactly the same with the SEO structures. But yes, I love it.

Let's talk a bit more about technology. In the book, you do talk about AI. You say, “AI tools can be incredible amplifiers. They're not replacements, they're accelerators. I think that every serious writer who wants to stay competitive is going to use them in some way.”

Now, I agree with that, but of course, the author community is pretty split, and I think Substack has even incorporated Pangram or one of the anti-AI writing things.

So can you talk about your thoughts and use of AI and how you think it's changing things?

Amy: I think that the analogy that I really love to use to think about this is to think about how some of the most successful writers in Hollywood, and then also in traditional publishing, put together a book or a show.

In Hollywood, you are the showrunner, and it's your idea, and you bring together a room of five to eight really talented writers, and you bounce ideas off of them.

They shape the work, and then they often are the hands typing on the keyboard, and they bring work to you for you to review, and everything goes through your computer last.

Even in traditional publishing, even though you may be writing a book, your editor is going to give you tons of notes. Your agent is going to shape a lot of pieces of it. You're going to have the publisher giving you a lot of feedback on what it should look like. Even if you're self-published, you still need a lot of that support.

So the way that AI, I think, fits into a lot of this is that it helps with a lot of pieces of the process that are tedious and challenging, and that are not tied deeply to your creativity.

When I think about writing a book, especially a non-fiction book, it's not just about, “Here, let me put everything down on paper one way.”

It's about, “Oh, did I already use this anecdote before? Here is a 30-minute transcript of me talking through this chapter and how it should be laid out and all of the ideas in it. Can you help me shape this into something that I can then go and edit?”

For fiction, it's also about the things that we would have used Google for before. What is the list of baby names that I should look through online to try to find the perfect name for this character? Let me do a deep dive on the history of this name, this first name, last name.

I think that for us writers, AI can help accelerate parts of the research process. It can help us find things.

One thing that I always love using AI for is, how many times have I used this word or phrase in the book? And then it'll be like, “Oh, you used the word temperature 37 times in the last six chapters.”

So it surfaces the things that a good editor would surface, but it will absolutely not replace editors. I think that's the thing that's really helpful. I love the collaborative work of working with book editors on my projects.

AI helps me to get past some of the detail work, the cleanup of changing my word count or word changes, to make sure that I'm not repeating things. Then it also helps me do deep research on the locations and the places that I may have visited before, but I can't remember.

What is the name of that small town in wine country? I think that this type of tree is in this region, but I can't remember. Can you help me with that?

So much of the writing process is also fact-checking and researching and line editing, and AI can help with so many pieces of that, allowing us to think more freely about our characters and the people that we're putting into our worlds, and how we're constructing a non-fiction book.

Jo: Yes, I love that. It's so funny, isn't it? Some of us have incorporated AI tools into our work now in so many different ways.

There are literally tons and tons and tons of ways that we use AI tools, and we still know that we are using our creativity.

It just feels more fun as well. I use Claude mostly. I love brainstorming with my Claude around ideas for this, that, and the other, and as you say, at different points in the way we do stuff.

For example, Claude will be cleaning up our transcript here and putting it on the blog so people can read the transcript, making this accessible to everyone. So things like that, which, as you say, are not tied deeply to your creativity.

Amy: Yes, and I just put in a big order for red pens last night because I need a certain red pen. I'm planning on printing out the rest of my draft as soon as I finish, before it goes to ARC readers.

I know I'm going to need that analogue experience of sitting down with a red pen at a coffee shop somewhere in San Francisco, where I live, and just going through and having that tactile experience of writing in the margins of the paper and feeling the pen underneath my hand.

I think that those experiences are still going to be uniquely us. I think that there are some bad actors out there that are using AI to generate every single word of their book and not reading anything and leaving the prompts in and just publishing it as is. The slop epidemic is huge.

I think for us professional writers who come in and use these tools, we're wielding them like scalpels. We're coming in, and we're having it help with the pieces that we know need to change, that we know we need help on, that are often mundane and challenging.

Like, “Hey, can you track this character's eye colour across the whole book, because I know I changed it five times?”

So that stuff is really helpful, but at the end of the day, I think it's the author's responsibility to sit down with a draft and read and have their hands on every single word before it goes out.

Ultimately, we're writing for other humans, so it is the human touch that will make it special and beautiful and unique to our experience.

I do think that these tools can help be your writers' room in a lot of ways, just like you were describing. They can help with a lot of the different pieces.

Other professional writers throughout history have had whole teams around them, and therefore, like you were saying, it makes the writers' room model more accessible for writers who can't afford that.

Jo: Yes, or who just want to do it for fun. It's funny, you were talking there about the eye colour. It makes me laugh because I do that all the time.

Also, I'm now writing book 14 in my ARKANE thriller series, and the first book I started writing in, oh, it must have been 2009. So it's been a really long time, and—

I don't want to reread every single book every time I do the next one.

My main character, Morgan Sierra, has been through a heck of a lot of battles, and so the wounds on her body at this point, and her scars. So I was saying to Claude, “Can you please just update my character bio for Morgan, and where she might be hurting in this fight scene?”

Amy: I love that. That's so clever.

Jo: Which is just so fun. Oh, and also, “In all the fight scenes we've written for all the books, can we do something more original for the next one?”

Amy: Yes, and I think that this is such a great use case, because otherwise other authors have sometimes had teams that track their character bibles and things like that. Even when I was working in Hollywood, when I was getting started, I was the assistant helping my boss track those kinds of things.

I think that it's very manual and also sometimes inaccurate, so having machines do some of these jobs that it's more effective to use them for, I think, can then free you up to think about, what are the other ways to approach this fight scene?

You're still having to curate, even if AI gives you suggestions of, “Oh, you could do this, this, or this.” You have to be the one saying, “Oh, I know that this is going to be the best choice, but I'm going to combine it with this and change this to make it true to your story and your series.”

So that curation is one of the deepest parts of creativity, and that's even what James Patterson argued, because he's worked with ghostwriters his whole career.

His whole point was that the work that was the most creative was when he was writing the outlines and deciding how the story was going to be told.

When he handed it over to his ghostwriter, he's like, “The hardest part's been done. The ghostwriter's just going to carry out my vision, and I have already done the creative heavy lifting.” So a lot of writing is just making good creative decisions.

Jo: So then one reason that some writers are worried about this is because readers, or more likely other writers, are attacking them. As you said, there is a very literary community on Substack.

So for those writers who might feel afraid of using AI in any way—even with marketing tasks because they're worried about being attacked—

How can you encourage them?

Amy: I think that this is just another wave. Every time there's a new technology, there's always going to be that moment of fear around, “Is this going to take our jobs? Is this going to hurt us in some way? What is this?”

I think that wave is starting to pass. I've even seen it with a lot of my Hollywood friends that were very anti-AI, who are professional working writers now. They're starting to incorporate it into their process more.

I think that while there are still areas like traditional publishing where there's a lot of fear-mongering around that, if you're able to take your career into your own hands and have the power to be able to put out what you want, then you shouldn't fear that.

You shouldn't fear backlash because these tools have completely changed everything. You can't put them back in the box now. So many authors are either using them publicly or in secret, and this is something that is already coming to revolutionise everything.

I say that as somebody who is in San Francisco seeing the future of these tools, seeing how people are using them, and if you want to publicly not use them, that's totally okay.

But I think the writers who want to use them shouldn't feel shame around it, shouldn't feel like they're going to be attacked.

There are always going to be people, fans, writers, readers, who are going to attack other authors on a variety of different things. Internet hate has always been around, even before AI.

So I think, for me, if you're writing a good story that people love, they're not going to care that it's AI. They're going to feel invested in the characters.

So I think ultimately it's trying to stay away from all of those fights about what is good, what is bad, whether or not you should use it. Every author's going to have to make that decision for themselves.

If readers don't want to read certain things made with certain tools, that's okay, but I think that at the end of the day, we're all humans and we want to read good stories. I think that is going to win out over the purity battle of whether or not this has been used with AI. I think that is going to start to fade away.

Jo: Oh, thank goodness for that. I really, really hope so.

So where can people find you and your books and your Substacks and everything you do online?

Amy: So Sutoscience.com, spelled like my last name, S-U-T-O, and then the word science, is my personal Substack, and MakeWritingYourJob.com is our writing job board with resources for writers.

Also, I'm on every social media platform @sutoscience.

Jo: Fantastic. Well, thanks so much for your time, Amy. That was great.

Amy: Yes. Thank you so much for having me.
The post Write For Money And Power: Becoming A Creator CEO With Amy Suto first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can giving your characters two bad choices raise the stakes in your stories? And how do you ask for the feedback you need from a critique group, and disregard the rest? Erin Dionne shares her writing and publishing tips after more than 20 years as an author and professor.

In the intro, The Future of Listening Audible survey [Publishing Perspectives]; Spotify expand audiobooks globally; Audible announce immersive new AI features [Publishing Perspectives]; Writing Storybundle; SPS Live USA conference;
AI-Assisted Artisan Author webinars in November.

Today's show is sponsored by Bookfunnel, the essential tool for your author business. Whether it’s delivering your reader magnet, sending out advanced copies of your book, handing out ebooks at a conference, or fulfilling your digital sales to readers, BookFunnel does it all. Check it out at bookfunnel.com/thecreativepenn

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn

Erin Dionne writes middle grade novels, picture books, chapter books, and nonfiction, as well as cosy mysteries under a pen name. She's also a college professor, and her latest book for writers is Bad Choices Make Good Stories: Conversations About Writing.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show Notes

Why two bad choices beat an easy choice and a hard one

How pre-writing in a notebook builds confidence in your characters before you draft

Giving characters dimension beyond the bubble of their story

How to ask for the feedback you want, and protect the core of your story

Forming an indie press with your critique group

How to get school visits through librarians and conferences

You can find Erin at ErinDionne.com.

Transcript of Interview with Erin Dionne

Jo: Erin Dionne writes middle grade novels, picture books, chapter books, and nonfiction, as well as cosy mysteries under a pen name. She's also a college professor, and her latest book for writers is Bad Choices Make Good Stories: Conversations About Writing. So welcome to the show, Erin.

Erin: I'm thrilled to be here. Thank you for having me.

Jo: There's lots to talk about. First up—

Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing.

Erin: Sure. Like some of the other people that you've talked to on the podcast, I've been a huge reader and writer ever since I was a little kid, but when I was about seven, I realised that it was people that wrote books. I thought that they came out of a machine or something.

When I found that out, I thought, oh my goodness, I love reading stories, so being a writer must be the best job in the world. So I was single-mindedly focused on being an author as a career after that.

I wrote off and on in school. I wrote short stories and things. When I went to college, I got a degree in English and communications, and then I went and got my MFA in creative writing.

While I was in school, I also decided that I wanted to learn about the publishing industry, so I worked as an intern for a local magazine.

Then after I graduated, while I was in grad school, I actually worked in publishing for Houghton Mifflin in their marketing department. I became an editor for a magazine, and then ultimately, I became a professor, and I work at an art school.

It was at that point, finally, when I was surrounded by other creative people, that I thought, “Okay, I've learned all this stuff. I need to actually put it into practice.”

So I got serious about my work in 2005, and my first book came out in 2009, a traditionally published children's book, and I published in the children's book field for the next 11 years.

I released my first indie book in 2021, and now I consider myself a hybrid author. I do some books traditionally published, some books indie, and I really like being able to have control in different aspects of my career.

Jo: Well, that's great. Wow, you've just done so much across the whole industry. That's fantastic. I do want to ask you then, before we get into the book, you did an MFA, and obviously you love studying. I also love studying. I understand that.

I wonder where you stand now on whether people need to study so much. I found personally, as someone who also enjoys studying, that sometimes I make myself not do the practice. I'd rather sometimes be learning than doing.

So how can people balance learning a lot with actually writing the book?

Erin: Yes, I think that's a great question. For me, my undergraduate degree in English was not creative writing focused. We didn't have that. So I thought, “I need to learn how to write.” What I really learned in grad school was how to revise and how to teach.

I think now, 20 years later, with the cost of education, you don't have to have a master's degree to write. You don't have to have a degree in English to write. You have to read a lot, and you have to write a lot.

I think the MFA is great for deep study on your particular genre if you feel like you need to learn more, and I think it's great if you want to teach, but it's not necessary to be a writer.

To be a writer, you have to write. So sometimes we can hide behind learning and hide behind all kinds of things to avoid doing the work, but what it comes down to is you have to put your butt in the chair and you have to write at some point.

Jo: It's funny, isn't it? I like the “hide behind the learning.” I still struggle with it because I love learning so much. I also just finished another master's degree. I can't help myself.

I do a lot of research for all my books, and I almost have to just pull myself up sometimes and say, “Look, do you really need to do any more research in order to write this novel?”

Erin: Exactly.

Jo: Okay. Well, let's get into the book. So you start writing with characters first, and other people, like me, often start with a theme or a question or a place or something.

So talk about your process of creating characters and this bad choices idea as well.

Erin: Sure. Most of my books start with a character. Like you, I'm a discovery writer, but I love to do all my discovery work in pre-writing phases, and I pre-write by hand. I'm a big proponent of using a notebook. I carry a notebook with me wherever I go, and I have specific notebooks that are for specific projects.

Most of my pre-writing is character-based. I really want to learn about who this person is, what do they want, what are they going after in their life and in the story, and what do they need?

Wants and needs are always a big one for me, because I feel like a character should be able to articulate their want, but they don't always know what their need is. That's up to us as the author to identify that.

Then through the course of the story, I always think about it in terms of the character is going after what they want, but they're going to get their need met by the end of the story. That brings satisfaction to the reader when a character gets their need met.

So I take a lot of time to try to figure out what that is, because for me, that's going to drive the story. I really have to understand the character's world before I begin.

When I feel like I have a really good handle on who these people are that the book is about, I'll do a beat sheet, like what Jessica Brody was talking about on your show earlier in August. I'll do a beat sheet to get some general ideas of plot points, and then I'm ready to write. Then that's where the bad choices come in.

If you think about a character and they get to a crossroads in a story, lots of times the first thing that we think about are an easy choice and a hard choice.

So for example, if we have a character who's 16 years old, and she's grounded, and there's a party on Friday night that she wants to go to, one choice is for her to just stay home and then hear about the party.

The other choice is for her to sneak out and go to the party, and obviously sneaking out and going to the party could have higher stakes and better consequences. But that's also an easy choice, and both you and your reader know where the character's going to go.

If you give your character two bad choices, that character is going to go to the party no matter what. So are they going to sneak out and have a friend pick them up, or are they going to sneak out and take their mother's car and go to the party?

Now we have two bad choices, higher stakes, and more potential for story drama if they take that bad choice. So I'm always looking at ways that I can have my characters get into a little bit more trouble, make things a little harder.

For me, that comes with those decision points, and giving them two bad options so that the reader knows, ooh, they're going to do something wrong. It's just a matter of what wrong thing are they going to pick?

Jo: So it's interesting, because you said you're a discovery writer, and then you talked about your pre-writing phase and the beat sheet, and now these bad choices.

So are you coming up with these bad choices at the pre-writing, at the beat sheet phase, or do these emerge once you're actually into the drafting process?

Erin: They come out in the drafting process. I have a general idea by the time I start writing of some of the highs and lows of the book, but I don't know how the character is going to get there.

Because I know my character really well, I can write with confidence, and I know that I'm going to figure out the path that they're going to take.

Jo: The word pre-writing, maybe you could talk more about that, because I feel like some people listening are like, “I don't even know what that means.”

So what is pre-writing for you?

Erin: Brainstorming. I just throw down in my notebook all kinds of things about my characters. Everything from the way they look to what they think about, hobbies that they have, people that are important in their lives, people that have influenced them in some way.

I make lists. If I'm writing about a young character, I make lists of things that are in their backpack, or I'll think about what their school schedule is, who their friends are, what their family situation is, and really try to figure out the dynamics of the world around their want, and why do they want this thing that they're going after.

So I will spend three or four months just getting these ideas down on paper. I'll write letters from my character to me. And all of this is building confidence in who my character is so that I can inhabit them fully when I start to write.

Jo: Wow, that is so interesting, and I have to say I've never done anything like that. Again, it's so fascinating, isn't it?

I might spend all my research time on the mythology behind a particular place. I'm often fascinated in places where there's been a lot of death and killing and blood soaked into the ground, because these places have a historical and often religious depth to them, and then I'll stick a character there.

Erin: Yes, it's just two different ways of coming at the same problem, right? And that's the beauty of writing, is we all do it in our own way, which is what makes our stories different and interesting.

Jo: Totally. Well then, if somebody finds their characters are not interesting enough, maybe someone is more like me and they want to become more like you, how might they address this? How could they look at some of the common issues with characters?

What are some of your tips if people want to enrich their characters before they write?

I mean, you've given us some things there, but I feel like what is in a character's backpack, for me, just feels way too detailed.

Erin: I think a lot about the reader experience, and readers want to connect with characters, and they want characters to feel real. I think sometimes as writers, we confuse that idea that a character is interesting with making them angsty or having all of these heavy issues around them.

I like to think about characters in terms of dimension. What else exists in this person's life outside of the bubble of their story? I don't mean things that we don't see on the page, but we all have different interests, and we all have different fears that may or may not come up, depending on what's going on in our lives.

So creating a character that has multiple facets, and things then bleed into the story. I can give you an example. There's a book by Angie Thomas, a young adult novel called On the Come Up, and the main character wants to be a rapper. She has a family history of performance, and that's her goal.

She also characterises herself as a super nerd. She's really into Pokémon and Star Wars and Marvel movies, and these things show up in the way that she sees the world and the analogies that she makes and the references that she makes.

All of a sudden you have this character that has so much more dimension, because she feels more real. So I'm always looking for things that I can pull in from other facets of my character's life to give us a lens that they see the world through.

So thinking about, beyond what's happening in your story, what do they do in their free time? What are the things that they would reference when talking to a friend?What are some of the inside jokes maybe that they have, or cultural elements that they would carry through?

Even just sprinkling in a couple of those things, all of a sudden your character becomes richer for your reader.

Jo: How do you take that further and turn that deep character into plot points on your beat sheet?

Erin: So I always think about, how is the character moving through their life and their story? What type of story am I telling in terms of genre? And then how do those things intersect?

So I have a book called Moxie and the Art of Rule Breaking, and the character is solving a mystery, but she's also really good at math. So she uses geometry proofs as logical paths to help her solve the mystery.

I am not good at math, so I had to figure all of that out for her. Then all of a sudden, this character has a very different type of problem, and she's literally using her logical problem-solving skills to solve it.

So there are those moments where we can see how these other elements intersect with our characters' lives, just like they would if things were happening to us in real life. You use the skills that you have.

I think that also ultimately ends up making you more confident when you approach the page, and readers can sense that confidence in your work.

Jo: Yes. What are your thoughts on character flaws? This is another thing that everyone emphasises.

Do you focus on flaws, or is it more those wants and needs?

Erin: I think in creating characters, everybody has flaws, right? So I don't so much think about what is their major flaw in this story, but in terms of getting their need met, usually their need somehow feeds into a flaw.

Maybe they're a character who needs to be more generous, so by nature they're behaving in a way that's more selfish. Or maybe they're a character who needs to have stronger relationships, and so their flaw would then come out of that need, and they are a little bit more withdrawn or standoffish.

So over the course of the story, the events of the story cause them to change, right? The experiences that they have cause them to move a little bit further over on the continuum to getting that need met.

Jo: Another thing I think about a lot is characters in series. As I said, I do character a bit different to you. I'm more of the Lee Child, Jack Reacher vein, or James Bond, where the characters stay similar in each adventure and the plot moves around them.

For people writing series, and you write cosy mysteries, sometimes there are little things we can do.

If people want to have a long-running series, how should they construct characters in that way so that you're not running out of ideas for that character?

Erin: That's a great question, and one that I've been wrestling with with my cosy mysteries. The way that I am addressing it is I'm acknowledging the experiences that she has from book to book.

So in the first book, she gets herself into trouble solving a mystery, and she gets captured by the criminal. Then in the second book she's struggling with that. She's having nightmares. She's got a little bit of PTSD.

So now she has a new problem that she has to wrestle with for herself that has never happened to her before. So in that type of a series, where it's not so episodic, where you do have a longer line, you can pull and build from book to book.

You can also build in overarching issues that take two or three books, or four or five books to resolve, whether that's a larger external mystery or a larger character issue that you want to explore.

Lots of books have on-again, off-again romances, will they or won't they, that add to the stakes, and that's also a way that you can explore how the character is dealing with relationships.

What's preventing her from connecting with that other person? Why is she skittish? What would cause her to trust? What happens when trust is broken again?

So I think that there are all different ways to come at it, depending on the type of character you're creating and the type of book that you're writing, and also what type of audience you have for your stories.

There are certain expectations depending on genre for certain audiences. So I think having an understanding of what your audience's expectations are and what it is that you're writing is also really important.

Jo: Yes, the longer the series goes on, I mean, if your character's already been kidnapped and has PTSD in book two, by book 20, they're pretty beaten up.

Erin: She's going to be a mess.

Jo: Exactly, and then you have to keep thinking about how many awful ways they can be attacked. It can get pretty tough for our characters. But then, happy people in happy land, as I think James Scott Bell says, is not a story that anyone wants to read.

Erin: Exactly. You just have to come up with new ways to torture them.

Jo: Exactly. Now, just coming back to the book, you have a great chapter on the art of giving critique, and you also talk about receiving it as well.

A lot of writers go to classes or writers' groups and get eviscerated, often by other writers, for whatever reasons. Personally, I don't do group work. I hire an editor, a professional editor.

How can we give critique better and receive critique better, and also not even take it from people who we don't value?

Erin: Those are great questions, and there's a lot of things to unpack in there. In terms of the way that we give critique, I talk about in the book how I had an epiphany in my daughter's second grade classroom watching their writer's workshop.

I thought, “Oh my goodness, this is the way that I've been teaching writing and have been taught, to just read your story or hand your story over and just take whatever feedback comes for you.” It was the exact opposite of what I did in my real professional life.

I've been in a critique group for over 25 years, the same group. That's pretty long. That's a long time to share your work with people. What I realised is we ask for the feedback that we want.

Most of the time, those of us who are writers, we know where we're struggling and what we're not doing well and what we need help with.

So when I turn over a piece of writing to my group, or when I'm working with my students and we're sharing work with one another, I always say, “Identify the areas that you feel like you're doing well, identify the areas where you need help, and make sure you tell the person where you are in your process.”

I've been a professional writer for 15, 17 years, and when I'm working in a brand new draft, if I'm giving something to my critique group and I haven't even finished the book, I don't want to lose that momentum on the story I'm working on.

So I tell them, “This is brand new. I need some help figuring out this problem, but I also want your encouragement to finish.” And they deliver.

They also give me a little extra stuff on the side, which is great, but I'm asking for what I want. I'm not telling them, “I only want happy things. I only want to hear good things.” I'm asking them to be honest, but I really believe that guiding people into giving the feedback that you're looking for is really helpful.

I think it's incredibly important. So identifying those strengths and weaknesses is key. I also think giving and receiving critique is a skill that we all have to build. It's not something that comes easily for us, and so practice, and practising with a critique partner that you trust, is really important.

In terms of receiving critique, I think the biggest thing we have to do is identify first, are we ready for feedback? Do you actually want feedback from somebody, or do you want them to tell you that you're doing a great job and this book is awesome? Real feedback is not just sunshine and rainbows.

So being ready for that, I think, is key. Then understanding—I refer to it in my book as the core of your story—the thing that is so important to you that you would not change, but that everything in your story serves.

So whether that's a theme or an idea or the thing that's at the heart of your book, you have to be willing to understand that any feedback that goes to help you strengthen the core is valuable, and then feedback that's taking away from the core of your story, you can disregard.

I'm not going to change this sister relationship in the story, or I'm not going to take that out. So I'm going to disregard anything that tells me I need to take out that portion of the story. If that makes sense.

Jo: Yes, I think a lot of that makes sense. Then again, we're both experienced writers, and I feel like creative confidence is something that you grow into. Writers who are earlier on in the journey, they might have 20 years of non-fiction writing, and then they're writing their first novel.

I think this is really common, where if you've written a lot of non-fiction or different forms of writing and then you try a novel, it's such a different form of writing. Or even if you're trying a different genre.

I feel like taste is such a big deal as well. I have a lot of writer friends, and some of their writing and my writing, they're just not the same. I wouldn't want their critique and they wouldn't want mine when it comes down to it.

How do we get this creative confidence around taking critique?

Erin: I do think it's a skill. I also think that practising advocating for your work is really important.

So if a critique goes off the rails, being able to say, “Whoa, this isn't helpful.” Or directing somebody back, “Hey, I want to talk about X, Y, Z. I want to talk about plot and character, not about my dialogue.”

I think that that's another skill to build, and I encourage people to actually practise and have some of that language ready when you go into a critique, so that you can say, “Hey, this isn't helpful to me right now.”

Or if you're in a group, make sure that the other people in the group, if they see something going off the rails and you get that frozen, deer-in-headlights look, that somebody else can step in and say, “Hey, let's shift gears a little bit.” And you can stop a critique that's not going well.

I think the difference, though, is understanding that feedback is part of the process in whatever capacity, whether it's a critique group or an editor or a reader. This is part of what it means to be a creative person who puts work out in the world.

So developing this skill and practice is important, because it's coming. Right? And sometimes in ways we can't control.

Jo: Yes, there's going to be a review eventually, and you're going to have to take it. That 25-year group, that's so interesting to me.

What have you and the other people in that group learned and done in order to keep that together so long? How can we all foster groups like that?

Erin: It's pretty remarkable, and I'm so grateful to all of them. We've definitely grown together. I think the biggest piece of it is we all respect one another in our work.

We write very different things. Not everybody writes children's books. Some of us write children's and adults. We've had different phases where people have been doing short stories or novels, or they bring an essay.

So it's being open and receptive and understanding. This might not be something that I am super familiar with, but I'm going to help you in the best way that I can.

Again, having that communication around what it is that we're sharing, being able to say, “This is what I need help with.”

It's really helpful to be on the receiving end of that and say, “Oh, okay, I may not understand the topic really well, or I may not read this type of book, but I can definitely look at your dialogue, or I can definitely look at the openings of your chapters and tell you whether or not I feel like I'm being pulled in.”

So being able to communicate with one another, respecting one another's work, trusting one another, and all of that takes time. So putting that time in and respecting the work that other people are doing, I think, is really important.

Jo: Yes, and it brings up something else in the author community, which is the comparisonitis.

Someone else's book has done really well and mine hasn't. Why aren't I as successful as that person?

So has that come up at all? Because I imagine in 25 years, some people have done really well with book deals, some people haven't. How has that gone?

Erin: Yes, that's a great point. My whole career I've been about creative community, and I really believe a rising tide lifts all boats.

So for years I was actually the only person in our group who was traditionally published. We've actually formed an indie press together now that we're indie releasing our members' books, which is another road we can go down.

I think it's inevitable, right, to have those feelings of jealousy, or that you're not good enough, and to just recognise that those feelings happen and that's okay, and to bring it back to the work.

We're learning together, we're working together, and everybody's running their own race. I'm going to help you as best I can run yours, and you're going to help me run mine, and eventually we're going to get across the finish line. It doesn't matter what order we cross in, whatever that finish line is.

So having that kind of generosity, I think, trumps everything. That's what I always go back to when I have those moments of, “Oh, I wish my book had,” or, “Oh, I wish I had done X or gotten Y.”

I think about the community that I'm in and how generous people are and what can I share with other people to help us all get a little bit further along, and that usually sets me back on the right path.

Jo: I think that's good. I was going to say generosity is a good word to use.

So let's come to that indie press then. What made you decide to go that way, and how are you doing that amongst a group like that?

I think it's becoming a more common thing, but also the practicalities of publishing and marketing can be quite difficult.

Erin: Yes. It was during the pandemic. We were meeting on Zoom, and I may have had maybe one more glass of wine than I should have.

Jo: Excellent. We all did in the pandemic, right?

Erin: During that time… and I had been listening to you for several years at that point.

We were having just a regular critique meeting, and I said, “Hey, we all have these different skills.” One of our critique members is a copywriter, one is a former English teacher, one actually works in publishing in design. We all have these different skills. We're all great critiquers.

I said, “Why don't we learn how to indie publish together?” Because it seems really overwhelming. I wanted to release some projects on my own, and I thought, why not do it with a friend instead?

So we formed Table for 7 Press. They all went along with it. I don't know. All the wine.

Jo: All the wine.

Erin: They got really excited. So we had a couple of conversations about how we would do it. Now what happens is we help one another prepare our projects. We are each responsible for creating our own accounts and uploading our books.

Last year we actually decided that we were going to create an anthology together, and so we each wrote a short story that takes place in one night at one Vietnamese restaurant. Everybody has a different character at the restaurant doing different things at their table. So we published that as a group, called Tonight's Specials.

We used Draft2Digital to do the royalty splitting, and we all promote and we all market it and we all talk about it, and we all have work in the world and we made this thing, which is amazing. It was such a fun experience.

Jo: That is lovely. I think that is a nice way to do it, and having the royalty splitting is so good, because that is a pain in the neck, as you know. The amount of money that you'd be paying each other and trying to split is not tons. You're not splitting a million dollars every month.

Erin: Exactly. We're lucky if we can each buy a cup of coffee.

Jo: Yes, absolutely, and especially after the initial promotional periods.

So anything that you've learned in your indie publishing life that surprised you?

I mean, even if you were listening to this show, or you knew about it intellectually as somebody who studies a lot, obviously. What practically might have surprised you, or that you think people should know?

Erin: It's really fun.

Jo: Oh, that's good.

Erin: It's so fun. I love having the control.

I was surprised at how much I loved doing interior design. I use Vellum, but have played with Draft2Digital. I've played with different formatting software, and that's something that I never would have thought that I would have enjoyed. I'm not a graphic design person.

I've just been delighted. I love learning new things, and so there's so much to learn and there's so many options that it's really exciting.

As somebody who also has had a traditional career and can continue to have one, it's a really nice balance. I can produce works and share them with the world that I know wouldn't fit in a traditional bubble. So I get to make those choices, and I love the control that it gives me.

Jo: Well, that's great. I think the freedom and the creative control and the financial side of it, for me, is still exciting. And starting on a new project, I've just started another book this morning, actually.

Erin: Oh, fantastic.

Jo: You can't stop us, right?

Erin: Right. There's always something new to do.

Jo: Yes, there is. On that as well, I did want to ask you about your school visits and workshops. So on your website, because you do middle grade, you do picture books, chapter books, children's publishing and children's marketing is quite a different beast, I think.

So tell us about these school visits and workshops, and how do these play a part in your author business?

Erin: My school visits are definitely an important component of that. I love being able to go into schools and talk to readers and talk to teachers and librarians about books. They wax and wane for me because I am a full-time professor, and so I have to work around my teaching schedule.

So I'm not one of those people who's doing 30 to 50 school visits a year. I'm a little bit more selective. I tend to stay maybe a little bit more regional with them.

It's an important element for me, and I love being able to connect with readers, and that's the best thing as a children's book author, is seeing a kid who just falls in love with your book and is so excited to talk to you about it.

So it is a significant portion of my business at certain points when I have a new book out, or at certain times of year when I'm maybe a little bit more available around my teaching schedule.

Then the workshops that I do tend to be for writer organisations and talking about craft and craft elements, and those I do regularly all year long. I do a lot of them on Zoom or at conferences or on weekends, and so that portion of it is a little bit easier to fit into my schedule.

I love being able to share craft elements and talk about craft with writers at any level, because, again, that element of sharing and generosity and creating creative community is really important to me. So I'm always looking for opportunities to do that, and I really, really enjoy it.

So talking to readers and talking to writers, it's the best job in the world.

Jo: Well, just back on those school visits in particular, how are you actually getting those in the first place?

How are you marketing to schools and librarians?

Erin: So there's definitely legwork involved. I have presentations that I've refined over the years and practised at local library and school events. I do a lot of outreach to librarians. I join the local state library lists.

I live in New England, in Massachusetts, so the Massachusetts School Library Association, the Massachusetts Reading Association, they have conferences every year.

So I try to pitch myself to go to the conferences, and then you're in front of people who work at a whole bunch of different schools, and you can get school visits that way.

I don't do as much direct marketing out to individual schools anymore, just because typically it's the parent organisations that would bring in authors, through grants and funding, and those parent volunteer leaders change. So I try to always go through the librarians, and then the librarians can take it to their school officials.

So working through those conferences and those organisations, they all have Facebook pages, and so being able to connect with them, and then things spread by word of mouth. So I'm able to get visits that way.

Then, on nice occasions, my book ends up on state reading lists across the United States, and then that's another opportunity where librarians will see books that show up on those lists and invite authors to come in and speak. So I've been very fortunate to have that happen as well at different times in my career.

Then once I go somewhere, it's like anything else. You keep track of who you meet, where you've been, get their email address, and then keep in touch with them and remind them that you're here, and would love to come back to their school, and build those relationships.

Jo: It strikes me from everything you've talked about that you have very much had a long-term view of your career and your relationships and the generosity, and that your career is built because of that, as opposed to trying to achieve something at a specific point.

It's almost like you've just had that long-term view.

Erin: I think it's definitely emerged. I learned and realised very quickly in the traditional sphere that diversification is really important. I'm somebody who's had a bunch of different books published, but I've also been involved in all of the turmoil in the traditional publishing industry.

I've had editors leave. I've had imprints close. I've had books go out of print. So, very quickly I learned that I can't put all my eggs in one basket.

I'm also fortunate in that I have my skills as a teacher that I can incorporate in my writing life in sharing and talking about craft. So it became evident that being able to do lots of different things in the community was beneficial and important to me.

I love being able to talk to new writers who aren't as established. It brings me a level of satisfaction that I did not even expect when I first started this. Being part of the writing community, and learning now about the indie community and being part of that community, I just find it so valuable.

I think that that contributes to longevity, is being able to adapt and change and diversify yourself, and give back.

Jo: Oh, fantastic. Well, it's a great book, and that is Bad Choices Make Good Stories.

So where can people find you and your books online?

Erin: My website is the easiest place. It's ErinDionne.com.

Jo: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Erin. That was great.

Erin: Thank you, Joanna. It was so much fun to talk to you.
The post Bad Choices Make Good Stories: Character, Critique And Community With Erin Dionne first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How do you find and notice story ideas, and how do you turn those into short stories, novels, or as anecdotes for your non-fiction or memoir? Why is an author's note so important in an age of AI, and what might it contain? Joanna Penn shares her thoughts, and her short story, The Black Church, along with its author's note.

In the intro, Ebook Preorders on Smashwords; Two titles per week on Amazon KDP; AI-related Digital Publishing Awards at Frankfurt Book Fair [Publishing Perspectives]; AI webinars in November; JFPenn YouTube;

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn

Joanna Penn is an award-winning New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of thrillers, dark fantasy, short stories and travel memoir under J.F. Penn and also writes non-fiction for authors and hosts The Creative Penn Podcast.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show Notes

From story seeds to stories

Writing an author's note

The Black Church, a short story, available as a stand-alone or as part of The Buried and the Drowned collection.

Author's Note for The Black Church

You can find How to Write, Publish, and Market Short Stories on all platforms, in all formats: www.TheCreativePenn.com/shortstorybook

From story seeds to stories

One of the most common questions that writers get asked is ‘Where do you get your ideas?’ This is a strange question for many of us, since we are often so deluged with ideas that the difficulty is sifting out which ones to turn into a story.

The trick is to tune into your curiosity and start noticing what grabs your interest. As Elizabeth Gilbert writes in Big Magic,

“The universe buries strange jewels deep within us all, and then stands back to see if we can find them.”

What do you see that others don’t? What turns your head while others pass by? What do you want to learn more about? What questions come up for you? What obsessions do you keep returning to? Each of these may be a fragment, a word, or a few lines. I call these story seeds.

An idea, in its earliest form, is like a seed. It’s small, easy to miss, and nothing like the thing it might grow into. You literally can’t tell what it will look like when it’s grown, but there is potential in it.

A seed isn’t a plot, or a character, or a full setting. It might be a line in a book or a film, a headline in the news, something you see in a museum display, or a place that made you feel something. It might be a question that bubbles up, or a feeling that won’t let you go.

You just have to notice these seeds and, importantly, write them down!

Capturing your story seeds

Thoughts and ideas and story seeds will flit through your mind all the time if you let them, but they are fleeting, so you need a way to capture them before they leave once more. It doesn’t matter how you do this, but you need some kind of simple process.

I use the Things app on my iPhone, which syncs to my Mac so I can always access it. Other people use a note-taking app or a physical notebook. It doesn’t matter. You just have to get it down.

My story seeds are often one-liners, quotes, or links to articles I’ve seen that I want to investigate later. They might be passages from books I have underlined, or places I visit, or questions I have while out in the world.

Here are a few examples from my Fiction Ideas file that might even spark ideas for you:

United Arab Emirates plans world’s first underwater bullet train connecting Dubai to Mumbai

L’appel du vide. The call of the void. The compulsion to jump.

“Vengeance of the lost garden.” Ben Okri. A Fire in My Head

Noah’s Ark on the moon, like the Svalbard seed bank

The Wicked Bible. Printing error. Thou shalt commit adultery. 1631.

You can see that these are not fully formed ideas. They are just seeds. Most will lie dormant, but some will sprout, appearing in stories or books years later.

When I’m thinking about writing a new short story, I sometimes go to a cafe and sit with a coffee and scroll through my seed folder and notice patterns and see what strikes me as interesting. Sometimes I won’t even know an idea came from a seed I once found, but I look at my list later and discover I had thought about it once before. It’s a wonderful way to plant ideas and later find they have grown into something wild and curious.

If you haven’t already got a way to capture your story seeds, establish a simple process now. Don’t overthink it. Just start noticing and writing them down. They might not make sense at the moment, but they may flower later.

Searching for story seeds

Julia Cameron discusses the idea of an Artist’s Date in her book The Artist’s Way, and this practice has always been important to me. It involves taking time out on your own to go somewhere and fill your creative well, whatever that means to you. For me, it’s often travel to interesting places or visiting museum exhibitions that I know will have nuggets of fascination that may result in full blown story seeds.

On the morning of my fiftieth birthday, in March 2025, we woke up in Iceland next to the Black Church at Búðir on the Snæfellsnes Peninsula, a few hours’ drive northwest of Reykjavík. The small church and graveyard sit on a bed of ancient lava under the gaze of a glacier and there is a sense that time has stopped in this place. As we walked around the church that morning, the place itself became a story seed, and I later wrote The Black Church from that spark.

On the cheaper end of the inspiration spectrum, I often go to the British Museum in London seeking story seeds and over the years, it has provided much inspiration for fiction of different lengths.

An exhibition on religious relics inspired Crypt of Bone, a Viking collection appeared in Day of the Vikings, and one of the main characters in Desecration works as a researcher there. In terms of short stories, a sunken Egypt exhibition inspired The Dark Queen and I saw the actual Bronze Age wooden spars of Seahenge at an exhibition on the ancient world. If you follow your curious impulses, you will find story seeds everywhere.

From seed to story

Now that you have a load of story seeds, how do they become stories?

For me, it’s usually about a juxtaposition of multiple seeds that suddenly coalesce into something coherent.

With a Demon’s Eye came from my own experience of laser eye surgery, which was unsettling in so many ways, but a feeling is not enough for a story. Some months later, I read It’s What I Do: A Photographer’s Life of Love and War by combat photographer Lynsey Addario, and I suddenly had a character, someone whose life was defined by their sight, and who might indeed choose a dangerous path to keep it.

Questions:

Where do you find your story seeds? How can you make time to tune into your curiosity and discover more of them?

How are you saving your story seeds?

Can you open up time to revisit your seeds and see what might take root as a story?

The Author's Note

As a reader, I love an author’s note, and as an author, I always include one in every story, of any length. I want to share the spark that started my thought process and I love to include my research trips and links to photos, as well as a bibliography if I’ve gone deeper into any subject.

In an age of AI, when whole stories can be generated with a single prompt, the author’s note is a way to double down on being human and include your fingerprints on your finished work.

What is an author’s note?

An author’s note is a separate chapter, long or short, at the beginning or end of a story. It’s from you as the writer addressed to the reader who might be interested in what inspired your fiction. As an example, you can find my author’s note for The Black Church below.

It can be simple, even just a few lines. At the end of Blood, Sweat, and Flame, I note that the story was inspired by watching the Netflix series Blown Away, a reality show where glassblowers compete in a hot shop filled with furnaces and molten art.

It can also be far more substantial.

My author’s note for Between Two Breaths is a mini essay on how I left London in 2000 to go travelling after the stress of working in the city in the ’90s and found peace diving beneath the waters of the Poor Knights Islands in New Zealand. Later, that led to diving alone and a moment where I made the choice to carefully ascend when everything in me wanted to stay down in the blue.

That author’s note also includes recommended books on free diving as well as a documentary, and links to a solo episode of my Books and Travel podcast where I talk more about why I loved scuba diving.

While the two notes differ greatly in length and emotional depth, and they shouldn’t affect whether the reader enjoys the story or not, I feel like they provide an element of humanity that adds to the experience.

So, what should you include in an author’s note?

Start with the seed

I love to include my story seeds, the initial impetus for how the story was born.

In my author’s note for Seahenge, I explain that Seahenge itself is real and did indeed emerge off the coast of Norfolk, but my own experience of it began in 2022 when I stood in the British Museum in front of the actual blackened Bronze Age timbers and imagined a sacrifice laid across that upturned trunk. Standing there, I knew that I’d write a story inspired by it someday, I just didn’t know what that would be at the time.

Then I talk about how the seed expanded after a rainy visit to Ely Cathedral two years later, as I considered rising seas and drowned land and how the ocean wants to take it all.

A curious reader can almost understand how the story came to be, and that may change how they regard it, and perhaps, how they think of you, the author.

Include your research and links to resources

One of the reasons I write is so that I can feed my books with the results of my endless curiosity. I love research, and many readers are also interested in the lines between fact and fiction.

I also make short behind-the-book films from my research trips, like this one for Tomb of Relics, from Becket's Canterbury to the Shrine of the Three Kings in Cologne, so readers can see the real places behind the story.

In the author’s note for Soldiers of God, I include a link to the news report about the Vatican scanning project to digitise the secret archives and use AI to uncover hidden meanings, as well as a link to the twelfth-century papal bull Militia Dei (Latin for soldiers of God) that granted the Templars the right to be buried in their own cemeteries.

In A Thousand Fiendish Angels, I explain the elements from Dante’s Inferno that inspired various parts of the linked stories, like the Arctic location reflecting Dante’s icy hell, the terrifying city of Dis, and even the symbolism of the character names. These hidden layers in the stories can bring an element of surprise and delight which some readers love to explore further.

Include emotion and your personal story

Part of the idea of doubling down on being human is bringing your real experience and authenticity to the page. Sharing personal emotions in your author’s note can bring a sense of connection between you and the reader that no AI tool or human ghostwriter could ever mimic.

But of course, your note has to come from your honest experience of life, and there’s no need to fabricate anything to make a story seem deeper than it is. Your story may be inspired by something simple, like Blood, Sweat, and Flame stemming from my enjoyment of a TV show, or it can be a more emotionally resonant connection.

Beneath the Zoo opens at the gates of the derelict Bristol Zoo on the eve of its destruction, and the author’s note tells the reader why this real place had such a hold on me.

After my parents divorced when I was young, my dad would take my brother and me to Bristol Zoo for a couple of hours every month, all the time we really had with him for a period of years. It was difficult, but walking those paths and looking at the animals gave us precious hours together.

When the zoo finally closed, and the news reported that it would be turned into housing, I wondered what might be found beneath its Victorian structures. I entwined my imaginings about what might lie there with my own nostalgic grief.

Of course, these revelations might feel difficult to talk about and only you can choose what to share. Sometimes we write fiction to obscure the truth and bury our feelings beneath metaphor, but even sharing one true thing will help you connect with the reader.

My author’s notes in The Buried and the Drowned reveal aspects of me that even some close friends and family may not know. I reveal myself on the page, knowing that if a reader gets that far, I can trust them with these fragments of my life.

Bibliography and other resources

As Cormac McCarthy said,

“Books are made out of books,”

and I love to share further reading for those who are curious to investigate the truth behind the stories.

For De-Extinction of the Nephilim, I shared news articles about de-extinction as well as a podcast interview with the founder of Colossal, the company that inspired the story. And, of course, I shared more fiction recommendations, including Jurassic Park by Michael Crichton and Extinction by Douglas Preston, both inspired by the same technology.

For The Black Church, I include the history of the church itself as well as website links for the hotel next to it, and a link to my notes and photos from the Iceland trip, which you can read in appendix 4.

Including these kinds of multimedia links can take the story off the page and into the real world, and perhaps even encourage the reader to go on their own adventures.

If I’ve written on similar themes before, I may include links to those stories or books in the author’s note.

At the end of Between Two Breaths, I note that I’ve written about other memorable dives in some of my other fiction. In Stone of Fire, Morgan Sierra recalls a dive at the Moeraki Boulders in New Zealand while inside St. Mark’s Basilica in Venice. In Deviance, O’s memory of an encounter with an octopus plays an important part in the story and is based on my own experience, and The Dark Queen features a dive to a submerged Egyptian city.

You can also use your author’s note to say thank you, although sometimes acknowledgements, email list sign-ups, and other back matter are kept separate.

There are no rules

You don’t need an author’s note at all, and if you include one, there’s no need to follow any template. It’s up to you how much you share, especially if you are self-publishing your own work as only you control the word count.

If you submit to professional markets, author’s notes are often not included or are a few short lines, so you may have to be concise, but if you reprint later, or include your stories in a collection, I urge you to consider adding something about the story behind the story and bring yourself, the author, alive.

Questions:

As a reader, do you love an author’s note? What do you like them to include?

For whatever story you’re working on, what are the elements you could include in an author’s note?

If readers want to do further reading on the topics of your short story, do you have sources from your own research you could share?

How could you connect with readers on a personal level through your author’s note?

You can read The Black Church as a stand-alone here, or read or listen as part of my collection, The Buried and the Drowned.

The post From Story Seeds To Stories, And Writing An Author’s Note, With Joanna Penn first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you keep writing when midlife brings grief, exhaustion, rage, and a creativity that seems to have dried up? How can you accelerate if midlife brings you more energy? And how can you market your books authentically when your energy and your interests have changed? Jordan Rosenfeld shares what she learned from writing through her own pause.

In the intro, how to write short stories [Novel Marketing Podcast]; Bestsellers: Excavating the Tools and Techniques of Successful Novels – Kristen Tate.

Plus, Hugh Howey: The AI Bubble Explained; NEO writing software; Will the AI Bubble Destroy our Retirement? By Mr Money Mustache; Future Vision X Prize winner, The Gifted; and my Cathedral Zero trailer; How to Market a Book Fourth Edition survey.

Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with writing software, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 15% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn

Jordan Rosenfeld is the author of psychological suspense novels and books on writing craft, as well as an editor and writing coach. Her latest book is Writing Through the Pause: Mining Midlife for Powerful Writing.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show Notes

What midlife is, and why so many changes seem to arrive at once

Disenfranchised grief, empty nest, perimenopause and the losses nobody talks about

A fallow period is a germinating period, not a dead one

Don't isolate, try something new, and learn to write as play

How to market your books in a way that reflects who you are at your core

Vulnerability, curation and how much of yourself to share online

You can find Jordan at JordanRosenfeld.net.

Transcript of the interview with Jordan Rosenfeld

Jo: Jordan Rosenfeld is the author of psychological suspense novels and books on writing craft, as well as an editor and writing coach. Her latest book is Writing Through the Pause: Mining Midlife for Powerful Writing. So welcome to the show, Jordan.

Jordan: Thank you so much. I'm so excited to be here.

Jo: Yes, this is an excellent topic. First up—

Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing.

Jordan: Absolutely. I'm really one of those annoying writers who's been writing all my life since I was a little girl, and it was all I really wanted to be or do. I'm a Gen X-er, so of course we grew up before the internet, and I read for pleasure and escape.

So I was really dogged in figuring out how does one go about becoming a writer, because it was the only thing I wanted to do.

I remember going to the library and checking out—eventually, later in my 20s—this massive tome, I forget what it was called. Like the Writer's Guide to Publishing, one of those big old things that has all of the editors, agents and stuff.

It was really just figuring out how to do it and sending snail mail queries and going to writing conferences. So I think I was just dog on a bone with it, really, since I was young. Like anything, once you get your toe in, it's a little easier to keep publishing.

I laugh because the first traditionally published book of mine was actually a book on writing craft before I had published any of my novels. So that felt strange, but I wasn't complaining at the same time.

Jo: So when was that, and what has your career looked like so far?

Jordan: So I published Make a Scene: How to Craft—oh my gosh, I'm forgetting my own subtitle—Crafting Powerful Scenes in 2005, which means I pitched it in 2003. That was the beginning of my era as a writing craft teacher as well. I was right out of graduate school at that point.

Then eventually I published my first novel. When I say my first novel, I just mean the first one that hit the world. It wasn't my first one written, but Forged in Grace. Then I eventually started putting out a writing craft guide every couple of years, just thanks to the wonderful people at Writer's Digest.

I just found a niche early on. Sometimes that just happens. I also like to point out that I was pitching books at a time before this whole concept of platform was a big deal. So you could be just any old body without a big following, because we didn't really have social media.

I did write for the magazine, the Writer's Digest magazine, which I think gave me a leg up in the book part. So writing craft became my niche, and then I always have really found success with small press for my novels.

So my current publisher is called Sibylline Press, and they are a publisher of women 50 and over, actually. That's their whole thing.

Jo: Oh, okay. That's interesting. Well, we're going to come back to the book in a minute, but just in terms of that journey, it's quite interesting. You mentioned platform there, that changed, and Writer's Digest publishing themselves got into trouble, didn't they? They got bought by a different publisher.

Jordan: Yep.

Jo: So you've been through some changes. Well, we're going to be talking about change in general, but changes in the industry have also happened.

So how have you navigated all that change over time?

Obviously a lot of listeners to this show are independent authors as well, so thoughts on how things have changed in the industry.

Jordan: Well, what's interesting is Writer's Digest actually went bankrupt. They got bought by another company who just mismanaged it, called F+W Media, and they went bankrupt. So a lot of us authors were terrified that all of our books were going to just revert.

I mean, it was fine to have the rights back, but we didn't want to republish ourselves at that time. So they did end up getting bought by Penguin Random House, which means our books are still alive in that traditional way.

So Forged in Grace, my first novel, I was in the process of querying agents, and then a friend of mine and I decided to start this thing. This was 2012, '13, this independent publishing collective. So we were going to act like a publisher but publish books. Basically it was people doing work trade.

We had someone who did cover design and someone who could do layout and marketing and all these things, and we came together. So I did publish my novel that way, and actually it was the time when Amazon was still quite favourable to indie authors. You could really make a decent amount of money.

Then my partner and I just… It didn't last. There were a lot of different reasons why we didn't, and it has nothing to do with the idea, which was totally working. I have really seen how the capitalist machine seems to continually come in and eat away at whatever profits there are for independent authors.

I've seen authors have to become marketers. We went from being people who could write, and then someone else would handle that, to having all of us have to do it ourselves, and now content creators. So I think a lot of us feel really exhausted, which actually is not unrelated to the book of mine that's coming out.

So I worry. Of course, we haven't even talked about AI, if we even want to, but I do worry a little bit about the future of publishing, but I'm not a pessimist in the sense that I don't think it's going away.

Jo: Oh, no, absolutely, I agree. Changes, I think, are what this is all about. Well, let's get into the book then. Let's start with a definition.

So what are you defining as midlife, and why is this such a change for many people?

Jordan: It's a very buzzword, midlife. So I will say it's a mental state as much as an age, because a lot of people start calling themselves or saying they're in midlife in their 30s, right? So it's not a hard age, even though you might say it's in your 40s or 50s.

For me, it's really the point at which I find people start to realise that they have less time ahead of them than behind. You might find yourself maybe a little past what I'm calling the striving stage of life, where you're focused on building career and identity and family, and all of that.

It also seems to coincide for people with multiple challenges at once. So maybe you're dealing with health issues or perimenopause or aging, and maybe you're helping your parents or your fledging teenage children, if you have children.

So there's a lot going on for people, it seems, at this stage of life, and I've interviewed 28 people for my book who range in age from 37 to 81. So there is definitely a wide range of age.

Jo: Yes, I think that's interesting. I almost wonder whether it is a realisation of changes. I mean, again, we'll just say menopause because I feel like for me, that's when it really kicked in, was there was a health hormonal shift, and I started feeling very different.

I started questioning a lot of things, and so much came up for me that I almost felt was out of my control. I think that was the biggest thing that happened for me, was realising, “This is out of my control,” and I don't particularly like that.

It felt like there was a lot of grief at midlife, and you mentioned there parents. Obviously some people's parents are dying, children are leaving.

Is grief a big part of this, do you think?

Jordan: Absolutely, and I like what you said about it often is a stage where people feel out of control of things, their bodies, their life circumstances. There's also a little bit of a, did I do everything I wanted? What will the next X years of my life look like, if they can get there?

Grief is a huge part of the transition, and I think grief is interesting. Right now, I'm in empty nest. I just fledged my son a month ago, and it did hit me harder than I thought it would, even preparing. So there's these kinds of grief we don't really give cultural credence to.

You can call them disenfranchised grief, where nobody died, and in fact, the things happening could be conceived as positive if you let them. But a child moving out of the house and you having to completely rearrange your identity, there's a grief involved in that. Or not seeing that child that you love so much.

Aging, dealing with aging parents in a healthcare system that doesn't offer supports, while you're trying to be a creative person.

Or the perimenopause thing is huge for a lot of people, because a lot of people were not told anything about this transition, and it can last 10 to 15 years for many people, and radically change your mind, your mental energy, your capacity, your executive functioning. It's huge.

So I definitely started writing this when that was happening to me, the perimenopause transition, but I also like it. As a creative person, I like the idea of a pause for anyone being a number of things that can happen in midlife.

Jo: Yes, and I think that's really important because, as women, that's one thing, but men go through different things, and people who identify in different ways go through different things. So we're not saying that it has to be specifically around menopause at midlife.

I think there are lots of different ways that this can show up, and of course, this is a show for writers. You're writing the book for writers.

So in talking about creativity, let's talk first about if people find that their creativity has just dried up, that it's almost died.

How can we learn to accept a fallow time, or perhaps accept and embrace a time of not plenty?

Jordan: That's a great question. First of all, I really looked into the idea of what fallow means, and you realise that a fallow period is not a dead period, it's a germinating period. It's necessary, right, for crops to come back. So I really love this metaphor of not seeing it as dead or gone, but as germinating.

I took a lot of relief and inspiration from this, it only exists as an audiobook, by Clarissa Pinkola Estés. She's the one who wrote Women Who Run With the Wolves, but she wrote a book called The Creative Fire, and she describes creativity as an infinite creative source that is never gone, but what happens is our access to it gets blocked.

So when I conceive of a fallow period as something in me is blocking access to my creativity, not that the creativity is gone, that was the first key for me. I also recommend that people work backwards and ask themselves, what life experiences, frustrations, disappointments, what burdens have you been dealing with?

There's usually a path back to what is preventing you from having access. And I really find the first thing is you need to apply gentleness and patience with yourself, and second, honestly, it sounds silly, but really reframing this idea that your creativity is not gone. It's not dead. It's germinating.

My therapist gave me the term rooting. She's like, “Oh, you're rooting,” like you're putting down roots, but you don't know what, if anything, is going to flower or bloom.

I was like, “Oh, I'm rooting. I'm not dead.” So I think it's a lot of reframing what we can do about it, rather than just conceive it.

Jo: Yes, I remember listening to that audiobook. I remember her voice saying la chispa. Do you remember? La chispa. I don't know if that means fire, but I remember it. I've listened to that, and you brought it up again. La chispa, yes.

I feel like that Women Who Run With the Wolves is just such an excellent book that we come back to at different points in our lives.

On other things, I feel like sometimes—you mentioned the word exhausted earlier—sometimes people are just exhausted. You are just tired. You're fatigued, and perhaps you just need a break. It doesn't need to be anything more than that, right?

You can just say, “I've got a lot going on. Maybe I just need to not do anything.”

Jordan: Absolutely. Actually, I find a lot of creative people are very driven in different ways, not necessarily ambition-wise, but driven to create or driven to express themselves. So sometimes that drive energy persists even when you don't have the energy for it.

So then we go into all this mental stuff about, “Well, something must be bad and wrong and broken,” rather than, “Oh, maybe I do need to be resting or conserving energy for myself right now.”

I think really it's having that confidence or trust that it's going to come back that is hard for a lot of us at midlife. We really think it's gone.

I do think that this is a stage of life where really getting support is necessary, whatever that looks like. I understand that things like therapy are not always accessible to everyone for cost reasons or time, so maybe it's your best friend or someone you see at the coffee shop or the gym or partner, anything.

Or it's two people who are both feeling creatively stuck and frustrated who say, “We're just going to get together once a week and see what happens,” talk, laugh, that kind of thing.

I just want to add that I really feel that if we're relying on our usual, typical, or former ways of doing things at midlife, they often fail us. It often requires a shift.

Jo: Yes, I also think that our mentors in books—I mean, you've mentioned there the Clarissa one, and of course your own book. I found when I needed to withdraw, I was reading a lot of books on the power of the older woman. Reclaiming the crone. I mean, I love this reclaiming language. The hag.

There's these words that we could reclaim around becoming older, and the cultures that respect elders, and what does it mean to move into that stage. I must have read 20 or 30 books in a period of a year of really trying to get to grips with things.

I feel like we can find therapy in these book mentors, as I like to call them.

Jordan: Yes. Absolutely. I don't know where I would be if I hadn't had book mentors most of my life. In fact, in a later chapter in the book, I quote Ursula K. Le Guin, who was obviously a science fiction writer, but notorious for really reclaiming older age.

She has a whole essay on the crone, and really the beauty of that stage of life, which is what I'm now aspiring to, because you've gone through the hardship of midlife, but you come through with more wisdom, more certainty.

Maybe just a little bit more, “Oh, yes, I've been through these ups and downs, and I know I can come out the other side.”

Jo: So I guess on the one hand it can be, at that time, a fallow, it can be that time of exhaustion. As we say, this isn't just a moment in time. This can go on for years.

Sometimes it can be a quickening. There can be a desire to accelerate even, and also sometimes we might need some tough love. I think that might also help.

So what are your recommendations for those who feel the need to shift up a gear, or who want to move forward?

Jordan: Yes. I mean, I think one thing is not trying to do it all yourself. Seek out other people who you can connect with. For me, what got me out of my fallow period was I joined someone. We do a silent write and then we talk shop afterwards. It was a fellow writer.

So I logged on at 8:00 in the morning and we all just got together and wrote, and then we talked. There was something about not isolating, I think, is key. So not isolating.

Then I'm really just a big fan of trying something new. It's that whole metaphor, right? If you're doing the same thing, expecting different results. So if something has changed for us at midlife and we don't feel the same and we can't access our creativity in the same way, then we have to do something different.

Another thing that I had to let go of was every time I sit down to write, it has to be purposeful. It's going to become a book. It's like, can you just play? What does it look like to write as play? That was a really new concept to me. Obviously I have joy in the writing process, but I was attaching it to a product.

So that's honestly one of my biggest pieces of advice drawn from my experience and others, is try something new. Be a little bit brave. Maybe it's not brave, but don't be afraid that everything is going to lead to something that'll be hard, that'll be scary.

Let's face it, nobody's going to do it for us. There's always that reminder. If you just sit around feeling bad and wonder when it's going to stop, it may not stop on its own unless we try something new.

Jo: Yes, reframing things. I think also as creative people, as writers, we do feel better if we are creating and writing. It may be that writing isn't the thing you need right now. It may be that you want to get into, I don't know, painting.

I've been doing different things, like I did some stone carving, and I'm doing really random things, and not in a serious way. So as you say—

Maybe writing for us is too serious, and so we need to just change it up a bit.

Jordan: I had a lot of my interview subjects do that. They are like, “Well, when I can't write, I paint. When I can't paint, I knit.” I was really impressed at how many people will just keep that creative energy going in another form.

I found that very inspiring, because while I don't consider myself deeply creative in any other medium, it did make me think, what else could I do that feels creative? For some people that's cooking food or, I don't know, organising closets. I really don't know, but there are ways to transmute that energy.

Jo: Yes, and I mean, you mentioned there about trying something new in our writing as well, and I did find that my interest shifted, and I did a lot of long distance walking and I wrote a pilgrimage memoir, which is quite out of character.

Then I also did a book on writing the shadow, that darker side of psychology. This did not fit with what people expected from me at all.

I feel like it is scary, but we are also making money out of this, and when things don't fit with what people expect of us, it can change things in terms of our business. So how do we deal with that?

How do we lean into change but also bring our audience along?

Or I guess just lose some of them.

Jordan: Well, it's interesting because I think that this relates to marketing ourselves, but I really think that authenticity is where it's at.

If you can present yourself as real, authentic, this is what I'm doing, this is what I'm interested in, that is very appealing to people, right? More than, well, this is the niche I've been in my whole career so I can't break free from it.

I love when a writer I've been following for years does something different, suddenly experiments and writes a new book. I actually find that very exciting as a reader.

So to me that's a lot of external pressures that say you have to stay, if you're known for being a crime writer you have to stay a crime writer. That's very much the publishing industry, the culture. That's not true to how people are in real life.

There's a writer that I mention in the book, she's Margaret Mead's daughter. Of course, this is midlife, names go out of my head. It'll come back to me before this is over.

She talks about how in her interviews with people—so she researches people in midlife and beyond—most people's real careers and creative lives are not a straight line. They don't follow the neat plot, the hero's journey, right? They actually are very meandering, particularly women's.

Women's tend to be more meandering, probably because, yes, they interrupt their careers to have children. They caregive, all of these things.

So I am really a big fan of let that meandering happen. Be open to that rather than, it has to be this way and only this way, because we don't grow. That's not a growing edge, right? If we just stay doing what we always did.

Jo: Yes, and as you say, some people will come along with you. Also, obviously we're a very similar age, and you tend to attract the people who are similar to you, and who are either going through similar things or recognise themselves in you. So I do agree with you. It is about being authentic.

The problems only come when you try to hide that change, perhaps. I mean, I laugh at, sometimes you see author photos that were taken 30 years ago. You're like, “I've met you. You just don't look like that anymore.”

Jordan: You don't look like that. I know. I'm a big fan of truth in advertising in that regard, too.

Oh, and the author, it's Mary Catherine Bateson, so she was anthropologist Margaret Mead's daughter.

Jo: Well, on that, let's just mention this, because I sent you written questions for this interview. Part of the reason I do that, one, obviously, I'm respecting the person I'm interviewing, and I want to show you how the interview's going to go, and I never mean to catch people out.

But also, as a woman in midlife, I forget things all the time. If we're having a conversation and I forget where we've gone—I take notes and everything, but I need to write things down more. If I am having an interview myself, I write down notes, even about my own books.

So this is something that's changed. I used to be able to remember things a lot better. So this is something that I've had to actively do, and presumably you have, too, in order to continue to be the professional we've always been.

It doesn't mean we're not allowed to forget things, but it's almost like I am shifting my practices in order to help my midlife self.

Jordan: Absolutely. That's a really great way to put it. I talk about it in the book as adapting. We adapt ourselves.

I use an example, one of my students who came to take my classes in his late 80s or early 90s, I kid you not, who was still treating himself as a student of writing. During the time he was in my class, he actually ended up having a stroke and had to relearn to speak in his 90s, and did, and write.

So he was constantly adapting new techniques to be able to come back to his creative self, and he really inspired me. That's a very extreme example, but I do the same thing. My desk is littered with Post-it Notes. My phone, I put anything you can possibly imagine as a reminder into my phone, with an alert.

I've also accepted output has changed. So this idea of I used to be able to be so prolific, I don't expect that of myself anymore. If I sit down to write, I meet myself where I am, and if I get some words out, great, I wrote.

It's a lot of that gentleness, just appreciating that I am different rather than trying to force my old modes upon myself, which doesn't work anyway. So I can try, but it will fail. Then I'd be frustrated with myself, which was part of my midlife transition, was trying to do everything the same way, failing, being mad at myself, that whole journey.

So I'm grateful to have moved beyond that and recognised that I have to move slower. I am less productive. I am narrowing the scope of my creative life, and that's not a bad thing.

Jo: Yes, and that's not a bad thing. That's the important statement there at the end. It's funny that I feel the need to emphasise that, because why do I have to emphasise that? Because we're just in this culture of obviously more must be better. So that's the thing.

I guess I've also felt a similar way in that I have a much better ability to say, “I don't want to do that, so I won't do that.”

Or, I asked you if we could reschedule this interview because my energy just wasn't there, and I know that I can't do an interview like this without some energy, and that's the way to serve the audience, and you were very graceful and said, “Of course.”

So I think this, “I don't want to do this, so I'm not going to,” rather than pushing into it. But then, of course, we have to sell books. We have to do marketing.

So how do we balance these things?

Jordan: That is the frustration. Well, first of all, you need to honour that feeling. I hate that it sounds cliché, but we have to honour that part of us that says, “I don't have the energy to do that anymore, or in this way,” because if you ignore that, you're going to end up sick or injured or frustrated or something.

So the way that I have been doing it… It's just a reality of marketing yourself as a writer that you must have a presence somewhere online, right? And you must put something out there to let people know where to find you. Unfortunately, there's too much noise, too many writers, too much competing for people's attention.

So I realised the only way I can do it is when it reflects who I am at my core. Which means if I'm going to make videos, which I have been doing lately, they're going to be goofy like me, right? I can't do a serious, polished video. It's not in my nature.

If I am going to have to keep a Substack blog, which I do, and write content, it's going to have to be about issues that are of interest to me at this time in my life.

I also find the more that I can interweave my marketing with promoting other writers in some way, that feels really honest. So interviews, like you do, I do them on my Substack. That feels really good to me because then it's not all about me, right?

So I think that's really the key, is finding this fit, and I think that in a way that's actually what's made a lot of content creators somewhat, let's say, famous, is because they have found something that works for them.

It's comedy, it's serious, whatever it is, it reflects them and it feels true to people, whether or not it is is another story. So for me it's not so much truth, but afterwards, do I feel sick inside, or do I feel like, no, I was pretty much myself? Then I can do it, and then it's actually fun.

I also have to say, I've never been very tech handy or gifted, and I was like, “I'm goint to learn Canva. I'm going to learn edits on reels.” I'm just not going to be that person who says, “I'm too old to learn,” or, “I've done it this way for so long, I can't do it another way.”

That's actually been really fun and freeing. I didn't expect that.

Jo: Well, yes, you have to learn something new occasionally. I mean, even this podcast, which I've been doing since 2009, how I did it technically back then and how I do it technically now is completely different because the tools have changed.

It's still the same RSS feed, amazingly, even though people don't even talk about those anymore. So, yes, we do have to learn some things, but we don't have to learn everything, I guess. We don't have to do everything.

You talk there about being yourself and authentic, and you have a chapter in the book about unmasking the self and this vulnerability, which can lead to creative breakthroughs, but this can also be really difficult.

Certainly the hardest bit of the time I was going through the early perimenopause and the depressive end of things, before I found HRT, which I know doesn't work for everyone, but worked for me. I didn't talk about it then, and it took a couple of years before I was able to talk about these things.

So how can we embrace vulnerability but still protect ourselves from the world when we need protecting?

Jordan: It's interesting, because I've thought a lot about this. I think that we misconstrue vulnerability as only baring our soul, or baring our soft parts, where we're open to judgement and attack.

The more I think about it, I actually think that authenticity can be vulnerable, and also being more direct. Just being like, “This is what I will allow. This is what I won't allow. This is who I am. This is who I'm not,” is a form of vulnerability.

That might sound strange, but it's a way of saying, “This is what I'm allowing you to see of myself.” It's an honesty, I think.

I find with online stuff, a lot of people are getting to the realisation they have to protect, I think, more from a privacy standpoint. Not tell too much that leaves you open to attack, or leaves you open to having somebody actually come in and steal information from you.

So the way that I've conceived of it for myself now is vulnerability is to be honest and direct, but that doesn't mean giving everything away. I guess this word curation rolls around right now. I don't think curating is a bad thing. It's like, I'm going to tell you as much as I feel comfortable telling you.

In this book, I call it partially like a memoir, because I reveal personal things about myself, but I'm revealing them very carefully, let's put it that way. I'm also trying to protect other people's stories. My family, if I'm talking about them, I'm being very careful about how I talk about them.

I'm also like, I have to say something about me. I can't talk about this experience but not share my own process, right? So it is a line we walk.

I have a couple of interview subjects who found for them, the way they are vulnerable is to transform their personal truth into fiction. So they tell real truths, but they fictionalise it, because that way the truth is still coming through, but they don't have to do that whole soft belly open to the masses, if that makes sense.

Jo: Yes. I think for me, it was just time. When I read some of what I wrote then, and even what I put into my pilgrimage memoir, for example, I'm not that person anymore. There was a period of time when that happened, and I read it and I'm like, “Goodness me,” but the distance helps.

You can share what happened later on in a way that almost feels like fiction, even though it happened.

Jordan: I like that. I like the fact, too, so in memoir there's this concept of two voices. There's that voice of the moment, the lived experience, and then the voice of greater experience that comes later, the meaning maker.

So there's a nice tension that can exist when you look back at who you were, or writing that came from a different time, and you bring the version of you today.

I find I have a lot of compassion for my former self. I can see how hard I was working, or how hard I was trying to impress someone, or any of those things. I think if you can be compassionate towards your older self, meaning even a month ago, then that can come through, too. It's interesting.

Jo: Yes, and we've been all gentleness and kindness and lovely, but let's get into anger, because anger and rage is also part of grief as well. I was thinking about this, and I have a little mantra that I use on difficult days, which is, “Don't burn it all down.”

Literally sometimes I just say to myself, “Don't burn it all down.” That might be a day I don't do an interview, or that might be a day I don't go anywhere near the internet, and I don't go anywhere near social media. I just try and get away, go for a walk or something.

This is difficult, because sometimes you should burn it all down, and I do struggle with this, too.

When do we know that radical change is needed? And when should we go slow and not kill it all off?

Jordan: That's a good question. It's going to be individual, right? But what your question made me think about is that the people I've spoken to find that at this stage of life, I describe it as a heightened sense of either more or less.

Either there's a lack they can no longer sit on and it's causing frustration and anger, or there's a too muchness, like burnout or overwhelming responsibilities. So couple that with hormonal changes for a lot of people, and it's a fire keg.

I myself have gone through it. I will say in the early stages, when that kicks in on a hormonal level, a lot of people find that it almost has to take you by surprise, I think. You almost discover you're going through it by having a rage reaction. That's my experience.

Once you do, then it becomes our responsibility to not spew anger at everyone. So it is about finding ways to channel it that are healthy. Whether that's, “All right, I feel it coming on. I'm taking a walk. I'm going into nature where I can be my full self, or I can let it simmer down.”

I also find I'm more honest and more direct as a result of it, so I don't check all of it. But it's a good question, because I feel it too, and there have been times it literally felt like somebody flipped a switch in my back, and rage emerged, or frustration, whatever the feeling is. So I think it's really paying attention to yourself.

I hate the word triggers, but let's just use it here to understand what's triggering it. You've got this baseline, perhaps changed hormonally. You may be going through a lot at midlife. What in the moment triggers that urge? And see if you can either avoid it, or can you remove yourself from it somehow.

I'm just going to be honest, people in midlife are going to lash out, and sometimes the best thing other people can do is get out of the way. I am a big fan of saying it is our responsibility to not wield it inappropriately, I should say, but acknowledge that it's real.

Jo: Yes, I mean, maybe sometimes it is a good feeling. There's righteous anger for things that we should be angry about in the world. It's just sometimes it doesn't come up that way.

Sometimes it might not be so much, and I think for me, it's when do things come up over and over again? And are there ways that it could be changed?

This is not something that I get angry about, but this podcast, for example, regular listeners will know that for a long time, for, what, 15 years or something, it was on a Monday, and I got to this point where I thought, “I need to kill this podcast because I'm working every weekend,” because I often was, I need to record the introduction.

So my attitude was, “I just need to burn it all down, kill the podcast after all these years.” Then I took some time out to think about it and moved it to a Wednesday.

Jordan: Yes.

Jo: And it was like, “I'm sorry, how did I not figure this out ages ago, that all I needed to do was move it?” And so if you do feel, people listening, if you feel like, “Oh, I just have to destroy this whole thing because I need…”

Whatever it is that you need, sometimes there is another answer.

It might feel obvious later on, but perhaps you just couldn't see it at the time.

Jordan: Absolutely, and I'm trying to think how to put this, but there's a version of this process where we go through this change in our emotions that is a little bit out of our control, and we have to just go, “Wow, I'm changing, and in the process of that change I might behave in ways I don't prefer to continue behaving,” right?

It might happen, and then there's a reaction. I think we really just have to be aware and patient, and then learn to do things differently, like you're saying. We have to change in relationship to this change. We can't try to keep being the old version of ourselves who was nice and agreeable and didn't ever get angry.

I know so many women, and also non-binary and gender fluid folks, who are just like, “What? Who am I? Where did this come from?” You're like, “My operating system is actually different now,” which is fascinating.

Jo: It really is fascinating. Well, as we come towards the end, let's also reframe this whole narrative. I feel like we talked a bit about this, about reclaiming the crone and all of this, but how can we make this next phase incredible?

I'm 51. I think we're a similar age. I'm fully intending to march into at least my 90s. So we've got many years ahead of us. It is not all downhill from here. I lift weights, I do a lot of stuff, and I feel like this should be an upswing in a different way.

What can we put in place so this positive aspect becomes true?

Jordan: Well, I think the first thing is we need to not see it as midlife crisis. I hate the word crisis because it suggests something negative, and I like to think of it as a midlife transition.

It's really, I think, only crisis in that, first of all, we scare ourselves, but when we don't get the support, or we don't heed the call that our psyche is asking of us, or we buy other people's attitudes about what midlife should be.

I am a big fan of this great book by Sara Lawrence-Lightfoot called Third Chapters or Into the Third Chapter, and she writes about people who decide—and I think this is part of it, it's intentional.

You have to decide, this third chapter of my life is going to be something wonderful, and you decide, what is the thing I want to do? What am I going to focus on?

So I think, first of all, just making that mindset shift is really important, and it's all the things we've been talking about. It's trying something new. It's figuring out what makes you thrive and feel excited at this time of life.

It's acknowledging and honouring that you feel different, and mourning what you've lost, but also looking at what you may be gaining going forward. So I think just so much of it is about attitude. If you decide that you're in crisis and that it's all misery, it's harder to make those steps forward.

If you see yourself as germinating something new—and allow yourself to be surprised—and the only way to do that, in my opinion, is to try something new, to do things a little differently, and embrace all the wisdom you're about to gain.

Jo: Yes, and all the other people who are on that journey with you. I think your friendships shift as well. I was walking in Portugal last week and met a group of older women, and it was just such a laugh. It was just really fun.

Just recognising the different parts of life, and that the kind of laugh I would have had with women in my 30s would have been a very different kind of laughter.

Jordan: I love that. I love it. Keep company with people you want to be more of, or more like. I think that's really important, too.

Jo: Great.

So where can people find you and your books online?

Jordan: Anywhere books are sold, actually, but you can go to my website, JordanRosenfeld.net.

I like to promote, if you're going to online shop for books, I like bookshop.org, or go to your local indie bookstore. Or you can buy many of my books directly from SibyllinePress.com. All of my Writer's Digest books are available through anywhere.

I also like to draw people to my Substack, which is called Writing in the Pause, and that's JordanWriteLife.substack.com.

Jo: Fantastic. Well, thanks so much for your time, Jordan. That was great.

Jordan: Thank you. I really appreciate it. It was fun.

The post Writing And Creativity In Midlife With Jordan Rosenfeld first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you design your year around seasons of work and rest instead of waiting for financial freedom? And how do you build the money confidence to take extended time off when you come from a scarcity mindset? Brian Herriot shares his ideas on time freedom after a career as a financial advisor and consultant.

In the intro, The end of the spectrum [Seth Godin, Akimbo]; List of money books; Lessons learned from 15 years as a full-time author entrepreneur; My author timeline since 2005; Producing AI-narrated audiobooks with Simon Patrick.

Plus, please do my short How to Market a Book survey (by 7 Oct); and here's my Cathedral Zero Trailer.

This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors.

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn

Brian Herriot is a financial advisor, professional speaker, and the author of Time Freedom: Rethink Your Work and Money to Create a Life You Love Now. He's also the host of The Time Freedom Podcast.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below.

Show Notes

Why writing, speaking and podcasting can build authority without social media

What time freedom is, and how it differs from work-life balance and financial freedom

How to design your year around seasons of work and rest

The three money personalities: minimiser, manager and maker

How to build flexibility into your work whether employed or self-employed

How a book that leaves nothing out can be the foundation of a business

You can find Brian at timefreedom.life.

Transcript of the interview with Brian Herriot

Jo: Brian Herriot is a financial advisor, professional speaker, and the author of Time Freedom: Rethink Your Work and Money to Create a Life You Love Now. He's also the host of The Time Freedom Podcast. So welcome to the show, Brian.

Brian: Thank you so much for having me.

Jo: Yes, this is a great topic. First up—

Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing.

Brian: I am a financial advisor, and now I am an author officially. I found writing just short of three years ago. I was actually doing some research on behalf of my wife, because she's always been an incredible writer, in the fiction side of the world.

So I was researching different writing programmes and things like that, and came across one that I thought, “Hmm, this is for nonfiction, and boy, it sounds very interesting. I think it's something maybe I need to do.”

The reason why I was looking at all, even for myself, is I was transitioning into a new line of work, and it was work where you needed to develop some authority and visibility. Everything everybody was telling me was that I needed to do a lot of social media, which I did not want to do.

I forget where I heard it, but they're like, “Or you could do the author speaking thing.” And I thought, “Ooh, that sounds a lot better.” So that's the path that I ended up on.

Jo: Interesting.

Can you tell us what that different path you were looking at was?

Brian: Well, a lot of what you see, at least online, if you're to develop a personal brand and try to attract business—in this case into my financial advisory firm—everyone says, “Well, you need to develop an online presence.”

In the business world from a long time ago, I had used LinkedIn, but not for anything like developing a personal brand.

So then all the advice started turning to, “Oh, well then you need to get onto Instagram and TikTok.” I don't know, I've always viewed all that scrolling as a waste of time, and I'd rather put my mind towards something more productive.

So I was just so apprehensive to try and get into that space, that I just kept putting it off and putting it off and putting it off until I heard a podcast. I've always listened to lots of podcasts, and I heard a podcast that said, “Well, instead of developing authority that way, the other path that you could take would be through writing.”

Because it's obviously longer form, you can put your thinking into it. Then that can lead to help getting into speaking as well.

Between those two you can develop some of the same authority that you could if you went the social media route. There was also the podcasting part, which I do love, and that's been one of the most fun things I've been doing lately.

So I do podcasting, writing and speaking instead of social media.

Jo: I love that, and I know a lot of people listening love that too. I don't think this is an age thing, I think this is an aptitude for short-form video thing. I'm the same as you. I'm not really into the short-form video. For people listening, this is an audio-only podcast partly because I don't want to do video.

Brian: And that's beautiful. That's the beauty of working on your terms, right? Which we'll talk a lot about.

Jo: Yes, exactly. So I love that from the beginning you were like, “No, I'm going to go the long-form route and reach people that way,” because you absolutely are. I personally would always rather read a book than watch a whole load of snippets or video online to learn about this kind of topic.

So let's get into the book. Let's start with that concept of time freedom.

What is time freedom, and how can we change our mindset to believe that it's even possible?

Because it feels like we're working harder than ever.

Brian: The way that I like to explain this is first by discussing what time freedom is not, because of how it fits. And I have this right up front in the book.

There's this whole concept of work-life balance, right? And work-life balance to me, at least, coming from the professional and the employed worlds, is that you're just stealing an hour during the day here to then make it up later in the night.

Sftentimes, at least when I was living with work-life balance, I was probably more busy than I even was if I would've just worked straight from 8:00 to 5:00. It's very week by week focused, day by day focused, and that is not time freedom.

On the other side is this idea of financial freedom, which time freedom also is not in my mind. Financial freedom is where, I mean, the simplest thing is you're either retired or you're independently wealthy or in some other way you do not have to work anymore.

So you've got this absolute freedom, which for me is boring, because I get a lot of joy from the work that I do. So in the middle is the idea, I think, of time freedom, where you do still have to work, but you're able to design work in a way that works for you. So you can do it on your terms.

There's a lot of choice. There's flexibility if you want it, and all of those things. I think that somebody that optimises for time freedom looks at their year and says, “This is how I want my year to go.” There's a seasonality to it.

In my personal experience, I do most of my work work, the work that I need to do to get paid and live, in what would be the equivalent of the school year, because my wife and I have a son. He's a sophomore in high school, and that's just the way that our life is lining up right now.

Then during the summer, we're fortunate enough to have this not so great cabin on a beautiful lake back where we both grew up. And in the last five years, we've designed our life so that we can go back there and live a different season during the summer.

I've always loved summer, and during that time, that's when we rest and relax, and we water-ski, and we fish, and we do all the fun things that you could do at a cabin.

Then also, there's this time when you're starting to think bigger or differently or make creative connections about things in the work that you do. I find it really rejuvenating, so that when I come back in the quote-unquote school year, then I can get back to work and do some really interesting things.

So the person who pursues time freedom is really optimising their life around this freedom and flexibility. Maybe they're working longer and later into life, but they're doing it in a way that works for them.

They're not necessarily optimising to steal that extra hour that day, or optimising for wealth, which would be the financial freedom path.

Jo: Yes, I find this very interesting. I like that it's not financial freedom because I'm an investor, as I mentioned to you, and many of us are. But that tends to take more time. So if you're aiming for financial freedom, especially if you start investing later in life, you're not going to get that at 45 or 50 or maybe even 60.

So defining this as separate is really good, because you're saying, “Well, you can start changing things now, and yes, you might have to work a bit longer, but if you love your work, it's not a problem.”

I want to come back to this idea of seasonality and planning your year around this seasonality idea. How does that work with the potential of other people's timelines or other people's possibilities, and serendipity?

I have some plans, but then, like this year, this thing came up. It was just a very intuitive thing and has changed the next few months in a completely different direction and blown all my plans out the water.

So how do you balance the planned seasonality with serendipity?

Brian: Well, first what I want to mention is, if you can figure out a way to organise your year so that you have these extended periods of time off, that's a wonderful thing, and it's not something that I think you can do with a snap of the fingers.

When I had this realisation that I even wanted to do this, of course it wasn't even me that came up with it, it was my wife. This was during a time when the stock market had crashed, and I was suggesting to her that we were not going to be financially free any time soon.

When she asked me what financial freedom looked like to me, I said that I still had wanted to work, just more flexibly, and she said, “Well, let's do it now,” right?

So back to my point, we couldn't do it now. We had to get the money confidence to be able to basically figure out how could you work for nine months and have that support 12 months of living.

So it's not immediate, but once you get there, the way that I have looked at it compared to serendipity is, if I can structure the work that I do, and again, it's so dependent on the type of work that your listener does do, right?

In my particular case, when I was able to do this, I was doing independent consulting projects. So I was able to line up projects that would never overlap in the summer.

Sometimes they would go into June because it had to, right? But I did the best that I could and tried to be as flexible as it was. Then when I had the time, then I was able to do whatever came up during that period of time.

Usually it started as just taking a break, resting and not doing so much work. But by the end of those three months, you really start to want to get back into things. I think you do have to just go with what your body's telling you and what your mind is telling you.

I don't know if that answers your specific question, but when you say something happens, right, and you want to take advantage of that opportunity, you've got to do it, right?

I think flexibility is probably the value that comes through the most in the book. Even when you think you've figured it out and you finally got that perfect seasonal year, well, something will come up and happen. I think part of what time freedom is, is being able to take advantage of the opportunity when it comes up.

Jo: Yes, being able to choose. That's the key point. I mean, I'm in a situation like you where I run an independent business, so I do get to choose.

It's just funny because I read this and I'm like, I do have time freedom, but I fill my time completely. I do have enough time, but I fill it with more and more creative projects, and I'm not very good at stopping. So while I do have flexibility, I also have a very full calendar.

Long-term listeners will know I've asked this of other people as well, and I was very interested that you took a transformative sabbatical in 2023. This is something I keep coming towards and then backing away from.

Can you tell us a bit more about that [sabbatical]? What was that, and how did you manage that?

Brian: My wife and I took a trip in, I think it was 2015 or so. We went to Italy for just two weeks. I mean, you could easily spend two years, I feel, in Italy and still feel like you missed out on things. But our vacation was so packed. It was very typical of the American vacation, I would say.

I remember coming back from that vacation going, “You know, I'm more exhausted now than I was when we left.” So we always wanted to figure out a way to do some slower travel.

The way that it worked out, after we had our revelation about how we wanted to design our lives, was that we were going to take what ended up being four weeks.

So I knew that I was going to have my first fully free summer off in 2023, and we decided to purposely go slow, and we travelled in and around Portugal for four weeks.

It's funny, on the flight back when we were going through customs, the gentleman asked how long we'd been in Portugal, and we said, “Four weeks.”

He's like, “What did you do for that?” Like, what did you do?

Jo: I love Portugal, by the way. It's great.

Brian: Lovely. “Why were you here for so long?” But the beauty of it was, if we had a day when we weren't feeling up to going to see something, we just didn't. It was wonderful. That was just a wonderful experience.

We were able to line it up so that we met other friends, so we almost had a vacation within a vacation. We had an au pair that we hadn't seen for years who flew over from France and met us.

It was just, I imagine, very not typical of the American work lifestyle that I'm familiar with. It was just anything but that, and it was just wonderful.

It really pulled our whole family out of the conventional way of thinking, and that was incredible for us, and really then triggered how we've spent the last few years of our lives.

We haven't had that same long trip yet. Part of it has to do with now our son's in high school and he needs to be here at home around his friends. But he'll be off to college soon and then we can go do it again.

Jo: Yes, it's so interesting, isn't it? Sometimes you have to really step away from your normal life and the grind of it in order to think differently. It's quite funny because as a Brit and a European myself—

I actually find coming over to America is a way to almost change my mindset. So it's often just going into a different culture, perhaps.

Brian: Yes, absolutely. I think part of this whole living with time freedom aspect for me is just leading a more interesting life.

I owe this really to my wife. I think I always, through schooling and coming out of college, I just almost had these blinders on, like, well, you're supposed to just get to work and do your work, and this is what you do.

She's the one who's always asked me, why are we doing this? Why could we not experience something a little bit different? And that's what makes for an interesting life.

Jo: Yes, and also from what you've said, you're not spending up big time. You don't sound like you're having extravagant times at the lake or when you're travelling.

So I often think that people feel like you have to have so much money in order to do something. I remember being in, oh, it must have been New York, and I was talking to someone and she said, “Oh, it's my dream to go to New Orleans,” and I'd recently been there.

I was like, “Well, why haven't you been? It's really easy. You're in America. You could just fly there.” I've even taken trains in America, which I know a lot of Americans haven't. But there are trains, and all of this.

I was like, “Well, why haven't you been?” It's like people have in their minds all these barriers.

Money is a big barrier, right? But you don't need as much as you think, perhaps.

Brian: It's true. There's all of the series of podcasts and blogs and everything about how, when you do this long travel or slow travel, I think is what they call it, you don't have to stay at hotels.

You could stay at an Airbnb and rent a place for two or three months, and it's far less per day than it costs.

The analysis that I've seen is how sometimes if you, say, maybe rented out your house back in America when you were going to Europe, and then you did your travelling, it's actually cheaper to go and take a long trip than just stay put. You actually make money on it. I mean, of course, it all depends, but it's eye-opening.

Jo: Yes, you mentioned Portugal. We're actually going to Portugal walking in a couple of weeks, and Portugal, for example, is much cheaper than Italy a lot of the time. So it also depends on where you go.

Coming back to the book, you mentioned a few minutes ago money confidence. In the book, you have these money personalities, and many of my listeners as creatives and authors, there's quite a lot of scarcity mindset in the author community, fear of financial things.

So maybe you could just talk about these money personalities and how we get to money confidence.

Brian: The track that I took in the book was, before I could just say, “Oh, go live time freedom and have inconsistent income and take these extended periods of time off,” I couldn't do it without addressing how I felt, which was like, “Well, can I afford this?”

So the money piece of it is extremely important. The money personalities is something that I feel like I learned far too late in life.

How I describe money personalities, and there are different ways of talking about this, but it's based on how you were raised and experiences that you've had with money from when you were a child, in your family, and then what happened in early life.

How has that impacted you behaviourally in terms of how you view money? So for example, growing up, we lived in a small rural part of the Midwest, and so we had money.

We didn't have a lot of money, but I can remember every Saturday morning my mom clipping coupons, right? Because that's how we bought our groceries.

So I do come from this, let's get the most value out of everything that I buy, and I'm going to restrain my spending because who knows if I'm going to have enough in the future. A constraints mentality.

Whereas I've met other people now that I've been an adult whose parents had their own business, and they had booms and busts, and so there were good times and bad times.

So when they get money, they spend it, so that they can enjoy it. I realise that people come with this—I don't want to say baggage because it's a bad thing—but people come with these experiences that influence how they think about what's possible as it relates to money.

I think that for one, people need to understand what that is for them and how that works. I also think that you can use it then to your advantage in figuring out how to gain the money confidence to step off into a life of time freedom.

So the three that I really highlight in the book are, the one that is called, what I call the money minimiser, which is the individual who doesn't like to think about money or would rather not think about money. Money is not a big part of their life, or they feel constrained by money.

I have elements of this in my background. And in this case, a lot of times you may not need as much money to live off of to be happy, which is actually a huge advantage, because if you don't need as much money to live on, then you don't have to go save up as much money, or you don't need to make as much money.

The other type is the money manager, and this is someone who's much more into saving and investing and understanding how all this works. This is the type of person that a financial advisor loves to address, because they have money to invest.

This is someone who's getting into their 401(k) right out of, in their first job immediately, and compounding their wealth over 40 years. It sounds like you have a little bit of this in you based on what you were saying. And there's some advantages to that, too.

Then there's someone like my son, who despite all of the saving and investing in our family, he wants nothing to do with it. He believes that if he wants more money, he'll just go figure out a way to make more money.

So this is the money maker. It's the entrepreneurial type, the person who's in sales, the person who can manifest money.

All of these different types of money personalities, I think if it is you, there's ways that you can leverage those to figure out how to make money work for you so that you can have time freedom.

Jo: That's really interesting. I think we have a money journey. I know some people don't like the word journey, but I like it. I come from a very scarce background, poor. Let's just say it. We were poor, for a while. Then, over time, things changed between various family members.

So I was a minimiser just by upbringing, and then I discovered the maker, and I manifested, and I worked my butt off and did all of that and understood that you can make money. You can earn it and make it in different ways. And then I learned about investing and then became more of that manager.

I absolutely was afraid of feeling stupid, so I wondered if you might address that, because this is what stopped me for a long time. I'm a pretty smart person, at least I think I am. I can learn things, but I just found the financial world just made me feel stupid.

So I minimised it because I was like, “Well, if I don't, I'm not going to understand it, therefore I'll just dismiss it.” That fear of feeling stupid, and other people might have fear of judgement or fear of all these different things.

So can you talk about that fear, and is the financial world really that difficult?

Brian: It's so unfortunate. The reason people feel stupid is because I think the financial industry wants you to feel that way, so that you then need their help to manage your money. It's full of acronyms and this and that and the other thing, and it is not that difficult.

I think there's a little bit of math involved, and numbers. I think if people lean more to the other side of their brain, there tends to be a little bit of fear there.

I believe that there are basic concepts that can be understood, like if you were to invest in something that covers a lot of stocks, it's called an index, right? And if you keep the costs low on it, you're going to earn much more money. I feel like there's 10 things that you could learn and it would get you 90% of the way there.

It's just that you need to find the right resources to explain it to you in a way that's understandable. I'll tell you, this book is the lifestyle/entrepreneurship/money book, which is a unique combination.

The money chapters are some of those that I had to revisit twice as much as the rest of them, because it was so important to me that there was not a lot of acronyms and difficulty getting through it.

I really wanted to break it down to the basics. Hopefully you felt that was the case when you read through those chapters, because it's so easy to make it sound complicated so that then people feel that they need the support of the person who's explaining it in the complicated manner.

Jo: Yes, exactly, and I totally agree with you. When I discovered the low fee index funds, I was like, sorry, what if I just put some money in that, that's a good way to start? And I was like, really? Okay, then. That's strange.

I think I had overcomplicated it in my mind, and as you say, the industry does that in a way, and the publishing industry does it too.

I mean, you've obviously been learning loads of stuff about publishing. In every single niche area, there's language that shuts out other people. And also I feel like, as a British person in the UK, obviously depending on the country you're in, there's different language as well, and yet so many of the books are American.

So for example, your Roth IRA is an ISA here, and your 401(k) is a SIPP. And then someone in Australia, it's something different. Someone in Canada, it's something different.

So that also makes it complicated, whereas once you can do some mapping and go, oh, okay, when in your book you say an IRA or a 401(k), this is what it is in my country, it simplifies it.

Brian: Yes, absolutely. I did take special care at the beginning of the book to say I'm coming at this from an American angle.

Jo: Yes. But then I would also say, I was saying this to my husband the other day, I'm very grateful, and I know this isn't true for every country, but I'm very grateful that I can invest in American indexes and stocks and all of that kind of thing.

I think you can invest globally as well as earn money globally, and I think that's really exciting. As an individual person, I can do that, and I've got investments in Australia because I lived there for a while, and that is actually a real privilege to be able to invest that way.

I don't know how many Americans invest outside of America. Is that something you talk about?

Brian: The only way that I've really seen it is through an American-based fund that invests in foreign companies in foreign countries. But no, not by buying something from the Australian market, for example.

You made me realise I need to create a little cheat sheet that just shows, okay, we're talking a company retirement account. What is it called in all of these countries? Wouldn't that be nice? Just a nice little cheat sheet for people. I'm going to do that.

Jo: Yes, because most of the time it's really a one-to-one, because as you said, it's not that complicated. When I was learning all about this, I was in Australia, and just so much of the information is from Americans, so you have to do this translation in your brain. So that'll be a super useful cheat sheet.

Okay. So in terms of other things, you've mentioned obviously enjoying your work, but you talk about different ways to build flexibility into your work so it's not all or nothing.

So what are some of the ways that people might build that flexibility?

Brian: I think this is one where you have to think, “Okay, am I employed or am I self-employed?” Because I think there is a big distinction there in terms of what you're able to do.

Again, shout-out for early readers of books, but the early readers of my book suggested that in addition to just saying, “Oh, live by a seasonal schedule and take three months off in the summer,” they said, “What are some other things that we can do to get toward that,” right? So that we can take incremental steps.

So some of these ideas can be done by anyone that's working in a more typical, employed position, and others might need to be if you're in an entrepreneurial scenario. I feel like a lot of it comes down to how you can structure the work.

So at least in America, more and more these days, there are more companies, and usually they're the smaller and the mid-sized ones, where you can find companies that are doing four by 10-hour schedules.

So you're working four days and having three days off, which then gives you a Friday every week to do something that you want to do, or start to build a skill that you could then turn into something that you could do independently, like starting as a side hustle and then moving into something different like that.

Other early strategies that I've seen people do, just to experience what it's like to take an extended period of time off, and especially in America this isn't done that much, is to take a two-week trip that you have over the holidays and put a week on the front of it and a week at the end of it and have a full four weeks off.

This could be during a time of year that's usually a little slower anyway. So it's a lot easier to perhaps have your manager approve that. These are just a couple of ideas.

On the self-employed side, I have seen more than a couple of people now work this schedule where they do three weeks on and one week off, and then three weeks on and one week off, and they've just figured out how to put the systems in place in their business to allow for that one week to be away.

I guess if you're just taking off for a week every three weeks or a week every month, you're never so far away from the work that needs to get done. It's just a different style.

What happens is, if you can do some of these different techniques and then you add them all up, it almost adds up to the amount of time of a full three months off.

So again, you just have to test and try it out and do these different strategies based on the type of work that you do and the place of employment that you have, to see what might work.

Jo: And also almost just plan it, like I said before about that person who wanted to go to New Orleans.

Choose a time next year, like six months' time or nine months' time, and—

Just book a flight. It doesn't have to be that hard, does it?

Brian: No, that's right. And there's other things… Now, I was talking schedules, but there's other things that you can try to start to create work that's more flexible.

For example, something that often happens in America at least is, you're working in a corporate setting, somebody retires, but that person has so much skill and knowledge about the business that then they immediately turn around and are hired back as an independent consultant.

Early in my career, I just saw this happen all the time, and I remember thinking, “Why do they have to wait until they turn 65 and retire before they do that?”

Couldn't you just say, “Hey, I've decided to leave my corporate position, but I'm going to become an independent consultant because I have a valuable set of skills, and I'm going to turn around and just contract back to where I used to work initially,” as that first step. That's an interesting technique.

You had highlighted the idea of a hobbyist entrepreneur. This is usually the one that a lot of existing retirees will do right out of the bat. I met a friend of my wife's parents, who had a very successful corporate career, and as soon as he finished up, again, people that are productive, I think, struggle when they immediately retire.

So he's like, “I need to figure out something to do,” so he flexed his creative side. They lived in Northern Wisconsin, where fishing is a big thing. So he would craft these large fish mouths out of wood. He would make these wooden fish that were very creative and very cool.

They would have golf tees for teeth and stuff like that. So you could sell them to people that like golf. He created them for all of his friends, and then he ended up with some sort of Etsy store where he sold a bunch of these. Then after a while he's like, “Eh, now it's too much like a job, so I'm going to do something different.”

It's just little ways that you can make money here and there that allow you to work on some things that you are interested in.

Jo: Yes, and it's interesting because the other thing about the retire and live off your pension idea is that the assumption is you'll never earn any money ever again, and so you'll just be drawing down on that money.

Even as you say, like that guy with the wooden fish, if you can make even an extra 5,000 in a year or an extra 10,000 in a year, you don't have to draw that down from the pot of money that you've saved or invested, or your pension or whatever. So that actually means that it can last longer.

So I feel like people forget that even these smaller amounts of money, which you can make as an author as well, or a speaker as you say—

These are things that just mean your retirement can potentially be better financially as well.

Brian: It does, and another thing that it gives you is the ability, when maybe the market is down for two years, and it's hard to pull money out of your savings when it is negative, right?

In those months, or in those years, or whatever it happens to be, you say, “Oh, well maybe I'm going to do my little side gig twice as much this year, because that'll allow me to spend that money instead of having to pull it out of a down market.”

Jo: Exactly. So we do talk about the business of being an author on this show. And at the beginning you mentioned that writing this book was part of developing authority so that maybe you can also get speaking.

So how does this book fit into your business?

Is it purely business card authority, or is it designed as an income stream as well? And any advice for other people who want to do something similar?

Brian: Yes. It's so interesting you said the phrase, like a better business card concept. When I think of that, I think of some of the places that will teach you how to write a book in a weekend or a month or three months or something like that.

I was very wary of that. I really wanted to have a book that stood on its own. So I think of my book as more than a business card certainly, but something that's really the foundation of my business.

So here's how it flows for me. The ultimate product that I sell is I invest people's money for them at half the cost, because that's very important to me, and in a way that is commensurate with somebody that wants to live this type of lifestyle. So that's ultimately what my service offering is.

The way that people enter my world is, I have a quiz, a little nine-question quiz. That's my little lead product that I use. But that gets them interested in this idea of time freedom. If they come across time freedom or they are interested in financial freedom, and they're searching around for a book, the book is the main thing.

I'll tell you, I've left nothing out of the book. The book contains everything that I ever did, everything that I ever do for clients. It's all there. I learned that from somebody early in the process, which is, you don't want to hold anything back in a book, a business-related book. Because, I don't know, it's just not right.

The thing is, some people will go and run with it, which is great. But some people need accountability, or they need someone to hold their hand, which is fine. Or they in some way need to connect with you, and that is then where you offer the next level.

So somebody could read my book and do everything themselves, or I also, a few times a year, offer a group coaching programme where basically we go through the book. We prepare what I call a Time Freedom Plan, which is like a financial plan, with the individuals in the group. And again, it's crazy.

There's nothing that I'm helping with that's not already in the book. So we go through the concepts. We prepare our Time Freedom Formula. We use the Time Freedom Calculator that I have that's, again, available for free. Anyone can use it, but we work on all these things together to prepare a Time Freedom Plan.

A Time Freedom Plan is what ultimately gives you the money confidence to live this lifestyle.

So you project the money that you're going to earn and spend through the rest of your life to give you confidence that you're not going to run out, and then that allows you to step off into time freedom in a year or three years or 10 years or whatever it takes.

Then as part of that process, there are a certain number of people that will have some money that needs to be invested and managed in a way, and those people can turn into customers of mine on the investment management side. So that's how it flows.

So I have a huge goal to just get this book out to as many people as possible, because I want to help as many people as possible, of course, but then also some small percentage of the people that read the book will ultimately want to work with me.

Jo: No, that's great, and that is the textbook ladder that a nonfiction author does. I also love that you've put everything into the book. I think it's super useful. I really enjoyed it. I think it's got some good questions in.

Even if you are, I guess, someone who is already investing like me, it's good to think about the time freedom as well as the financial side.

So where can people find you and the book and everything you do online?

Brian: Well, people can find the book anywhere books are sold. I do have a podcast as well, but everything is linked to from my initial website, which is timefreedom.life. So you can find everything there.

Jo: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Brian. That was fantastic.

Brian: Thank you so much. This was a true pleasure.
The post Time Freedom: Rethink Your Work And Money With Brian Herriot first appeared on The Creative Penn.