WHAT IF WE GET IT RIGHT?

So much to discuss. SO MANY WINS! This much more expansive sense of possibility feels magnificent. And doesn’t this question of “what if we get it right?” feel a little less naïve now?
There’s no guest this episode, just Bill and Ayana reveling and digesting. You’ll hear us beginning to distill lessons on everything from data centers and climate hushing; to organizing and volunteerism; to not giving up on the South, and what it means to meet the moment.
We talked about the big victories we’re most excited about and the losses that stung. It was a delight to reflect on the candidates we had on as guests this season — who all won their races! Also, the down ballot wins that will help us accelerate the clean energy transition: Texas Railroad Commission! Arizona Corporation Commission! Georgia Public Utility Board!
We shared our worry about the Bipartisan American Affordability and Jobs Act (AKA the permitting bill). Tl;DR it’s not really better than the status quo, so we should wait and renegotiate something better in the new Congress.
On this we are clear: Organizing matters. Showing up matters. THANK YOU to the many who made these wins possible. 👏 Some efforts we've highlighted: Third Act, Environmental Voter Project, Patagonia’s 11.2 Million Vote Project, Invest in America PAC, and Lead Locally.
Let these numerous and delicious victories, this dramatically expanded sense of what is possible, whet your appetite for more and deeper civic engagement. And listen to the end (or subscribe to the newsletter) to find out who won the clean energy mascot competition.
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That’s a wrap on this midterm election season of the podcast 💫
We had so much fun gabbing every week, making this show for you, with our wonderful team. If you missed some earlier episodes, run it back. Lotsa goodies in there for ya.
Credits: This episode and the entire season was produced by Remoy Philip and Ayana, with support from Jenisha Shrestha. Graphic design by Holly Griffin of Design Hungry, social media support from Feeling Seen Studio, and original music by Emma Munger.
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Mentioned in this Episode:
* A Very Expensive Night for Big Oil, by Emily Atkin, Heated. The U.S. oil and gas industry spent at least $182 million trying to elect Republicans.
* The Invest in Tomorrow Coalition PAC has won or are winning at 12 or 13 of the 18 they invested in. (Here is our interview with their founder Tom Matzzie)
* Adam Hamilton and Taking Back Religion from the Right, by Bill McKibben for The New Yorker
* Bipartisan American Affordability and Jobs Act of 2026 (BAAJA). If passed, the best-case emissions reduction from BAAJA is 3.8% in 2040, or only 2.4% from 2027 to 2040. Or as Abbie Dillen/Earthjustice put it, What Will BAAJA Do? Whatever the Trump Administration Wants.
* A nationwide backlash against data centers erupts at the polls, The Washington Post. Again, Abbie helps us parse this with her piece Voters Have Spoken: No Dirty Data Centers that connects the fight against data centers to the fight to block the BAAJA which would speed the proliferation of them.
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Enjoying this podcast? Spread the word! 🗣️
To help more people find these conversations, review 🌟 and follow What If We Get It Right? on your podcast platform of choice. Forward this email. Discuss this episode with your crew! And do you have election reflections? We wanna hear — drop them in the comments.
Above all, thank you so much for listening, and for helping make good things happen in the world. You warm our weary/emboldened hearts. 💛
What’s next for the show? Well, currently no plans for another season, but there’s certainly more to discuss....


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Today’s episode is a reprieve from the midterm election. We’ll take your mind off the fate of our democracy for an hour to instead explore the wonders of the deep sea and risks/promise of ocean industrialization. And we’ll be back in a few days with the final episode of this midterm election season, a debrief of election outcomes and what they might mean for the planet and all species who share it.
Today’s episode was recorded live in September during Climate Week NYC, as part of the Science & Society series I’ve curated/hosted with the Science Studios at Pioneer Works for years. The title of the event was “The Ocean Frontier” and the description read:
The clean energy and tech booms are heading offshore: wind farms, deep-sea mining for rare earth minerals, floating solar panels, and even floating data centers cooled by seawater. Beneath the engineering lie thornier questions: who owns a public resource, who profits from it, who governs it, and what happens to the ecosystems in the way?
The ocean holds a key to our climate future—if we act wisely.
For grappling with these BIG topics, our guests are Dr. Diva Amon (Trinidadian deep-sea biologist) and Ben Wolkon (climate investor whom you may remember from the “Investing in our Climate Future 💸” episode back in Season 2).
Dr. Diva Amon is a Caribbean marine biologist dedicated to expanding understanding of the ocean’s least-known ecosystems – the deep ocean and high seas — and how human activities are reshaping these fragile ecosystems. She’s a National Geographic Explorer and TV host, and co-founder and director of SpeSeas, a Caribbean-based non-profit expanding marine science, education, and advocacy. Diva has led submarine expeditions to some of the least-explored places on Earth, authored over 80 scientific publications, and worked with the UN on developing nations’ rights to their water resources.
Ben Wolkon is the founder and CEO of Avarna, a firm focused on commercializing emerging energy and industrial technologies. Previously, he co-founded and co-led the venture capital firm MUUS Climate Partners, backing more than 30 climate-focused companies. Ben started his career as an independent solar energy developer, initially selling solar projects out of his college apartment, and continues to make early bets on climate solutions, including offshore renewable energy infrastructure.
Our conversation covered everything from the environmental impacts of deep sea mining, to ocean governance and the ocean carbon cycle, and even the idea of floating data centers. Plus, our favorite ocean creatures - and one that Diva discovered! From wonder, to worry, and back again, let’s dive in.
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Mentioned in this episode:
About 30% of the carbon that we emit is captured by the ocean, and 90% of the heat we’ve trapped with greenhouse gases.
UN Report: Limiting Overshoot: Navigating exceedance of 1.5°C and pathways toward return (Ayana’s summary)
Electrochemical ocean carbon dioxide removal
Over 70% of the ocean remains unmapped, only 0.001% of the deep seafloor has been seen by humans
About 90% of the animals that we were coming across in the Pacific Ocean, in a place called the Clarion-Clipperton Zone are brand-new species to science.
Pathalassa: company working on floating data center.
BMW, Samsung, Volvo and other major companies have committed to not sourcing minerals from deep sea mining.
Deep sea mining lease sales are scheduled to take place in American Samoa, and the Northern Mariana Islands and Guam in November and December, respectively.
Trump’s Day 1 Attacks on the Environment
UN Convention on the Law of the Sea
International Seabed Authority
On Time and Water, by Andri Snær Magnason
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Credits: This episode was produced by Remoy Philip and me (Ayana), with support from Jenisha Shrestha. Original music by Emma Munger. Graphic design by Holly Griffin of Design Hungry, and social media support from Feeling Seen Studio.
Special thanks to Pioneer Works for hosting us. Find previous installments of the Science and Society series and so much more at pioneerworks.org/broadcast.
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GET OUT THE VOTE 🗳️
It's Election Day 2026. In 2024, 11.2 million (million!) environmentalists didn’t vote. So, TODAY we’re gonna call and remind them. Join me and Environmental Voter Project for the phone banking of the midterm election! RSVP at environmentalvoter.org/get-invovled
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Enjoying the podcast? Spread the word! Review 🌟 and follow What If We Get It Right? to help more people find us and these timely conversations. Drop a link to your favorite episode in your group chat and discuss. But most of all, thank you for riding with us this season. 💛 We do it for you.



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First, a question: Are you helping ensure that pro-Earth candidates win these midterm elections? If not, scroll down to the “Calls to Action” section for some ideas and links. Denizens of Earth, let’s win this thing!
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This episode’s guest is icon Naomi Klein, one of the most important authors and activists of our time. She helps us all better connect the dots between democracy, fascism, environment, and justice. Her new book, End Times Fascism and the Fight for the Living World, co-authored with Astra Taylor, needs to be bumped to the very top of your to-read list, the top of your nightstand stack.
Our conversation covered everything from data center resistance and “climate supremacy”, to our right to an uncluttered night sky, and disaster capitalism. We also talked about what we can learn from activist movements, like Standing Rock and Memphis’s fights against pipelines and for clean water. And we really got into it on AI and data centers.
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There is so much pontificating on AI and data centers. To supplement this episode, a few resources I’ve found quite helpful:
* Kate Gage's new newsletter decoding the jargon: Political AI Field Guide: Factions and Beliefs, and AI Political Field Guide: Terminology Decoder (September 2026 Edition)
* A year in, the data center/AI battle starts to clarify, by Bill McKibben
* AI’s climate problem is worse than we thought, by Emily Atkin
* A warning about ‘model welfare’ by Mustafa Suleyman (who is also interviewed in my book, What If We Get It Right? )
* AI and the Enshittification Era with Cory Doctorow, on The Weekly Show with John Stewart podcast
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CALLS TO ACTION: Get out the vote! ✅
1 week until Election Day. What can you do this week so that you don’t have any regrets on November 4th? Some options:
* VOTE! 🗳️ (Obviously.) Early voting is underway. See voting dates for your state here. Get a preview of your ballot at ballotpedia.org.
* Check out candidate endorsements from Lead Locally, League of Conservation Voters and Working Families Party. Make sure to vote all the way down your ballot.
* Pick a candidate you like, go to their website and click the volunteer button. They will put you to work! Knocking doors and talking to voters about close races is super important.
* Encourage your friends and family to make a plan to vote. Here’s a great tool from Patagonia to help.
* Volunteer with Third Act, the amazing organization Bill founded and leads.
* Join me and so many amazing volunteers to phone bank with Environmental Voter Project and help make sure all Earth lovers show up to vote.
* Note: In some states it’s not too late to register to vote — and some places let you register to vote on Election Day.
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Mentioned in this episode:
* More than 1,600 institutions have divested more than $41 trillion from fossil fuel stocks.
* Memphis Community Against Pollution, led by KeShaun Pearson
* Polling on Americans’ attitudes about climate from Yale Program on Climate Change Communication and George Mason University.
* Bill’s piece on Nepal’s flooding disaster: The growing rumble
* Naomi’s publications:
* Newsletter: Patterns by Naomi Klein
* Book: End Times Fascism - And the Fight for the Living World
* Book: The Shock Doctrine
* Naomi’s suggested resources on a working-class climate agenda:
* Center for Climate Justice at UBC
* Climate and Community Institute
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Credits: This episode was produced by Remoy Philip and me (Ayana), with support from Jenisha Shrestha. Special thanks to Sharon Nadeem, Naomi’s producer for the making our first(/only?) Substack Live happen. Original music by Emma Munger. Graphic design by Holly Griffin of Design Hungry, and social media support from Feeling Seen Studio.
Enjoying the show? Share it, spread the word! And review 🌟 and follow What If We Get It Right? — that helps more people find us and these timely conversations. We’ve got two more episodes left for this season!
Thank you for listening. 💛



Get full access to WHAT IF WE GET IT RIGHT? at ayanaelizabeth.substack.com/subscribe

Before diving into today’s episode, a tiny celebration 🎉: The What If We Get It Right? podcast reached 500,000+ downloads! THANK YOU for listening. More great interviews coming your way. To support the show (1) follow and review 🌟, (2) tell your people to tune in, and, if you can, (3) become a paid subscriber.
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Our guest for today’s episode is Deb Haaland, one of the most remarkable figures in American politics, currently running to be the Governor of New Mexico. She is a member of the Pueblo of Laguna and a 35th generation New Mexican.
Most recently, Haaland was the Secretary of the Interior for the Biden administration, running of one of the largest departments in the federal government. There, among many other things, she made sure big new tracts of land like Bears Ears and Escalante and Utah were added to the public land system. She has also served as a Congresswoman, and chaired the New Mexico Democratic party. Often, she has been the first Native American or first the Native woman in the positions she has held.
In this conversation, we talk about her vision for New Mexico’s clean energy transition, a state where half the state's budget comes from oil and gas. We cover everything from water conservation to invasive species management, and the inherent value of nature and majestic landscapes. We also talk about the importance of being a good steward of Earth for future generations — and why we need to hire more lawyers. This conversation got into the nitty gritty (as we do), but above all had lots of heart.
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CALLS TO ACTION: Get out the vote! ✅
Local and state leadership matter so much for implementation of climate solutions. So make sure to vote all the way down your ballot! And it’s definitely not too late pick a candidate, roll up your sleeves and help them win.
Some resources for channeling your election/climate anxiety into productive actions:
* VOTE! 🗳️ Early voting has started in many states. Bill and I have already voted. Have you? Have your friends & family? (Get a preview of your ballot at ballotpedia.org)
* Check out candidate endorsements from Lead Locally, League of Conservation Voters and Working Families Party.
* Volunteer with Third Act, the amazing organization Bill founded and leads.
* Pick a candidate you like, go to their website and click the volunteer button. They will put you to work! Knocking doors and talking to people in your community is super important.
* Encourage your friends and family to make a plan to vote. Here’s a great tool from Patagonia to help.
* Note: In some states it’s not too late to register to vote — and some places let you register to vote on Election Day.
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As you know by now, I’m a BIG fan of Environmental Voter Project. Join me and so many amazing volunteers to phone bank and help make sure all Earth lovers show up to vote. In my election freakout, I’ve signed up to host 2 more shifts. If these times don’t work for you, sign up for EVPs many other shifts. RSVP here.
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Mentioned in this episode
* New Mexico produces half its electricity from the sun and the wind, and has the second-biggest crude oil production, and the fourth-largest natural gas output in the country.
* New Mexico’s Energy Transition Act passed in 2019 to reach net zero by 2050
* Native American Business Incubators Program Act passed in Congress in 2020
* 400 co-stewardship agreements signed by the Biden-Harris administration with Tribes, Alaska Native Corporations and consortiums
* New Mexico has the highest-rated system for distributed energy resources (DER) interconnection in the country.
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Credits: This episode was produced by Remoy Philip and me (Ayana), with support from Jenisha Shrestha. Original music by Emma Munger. Graphic design by Holly Griffin of Design Hungry, and social media support from Feeling Seen Studio.
Enjoying the show? Share it, spread the word! And review 🌟 and follow What If We Get It Right? on your platform of choice — that helps more people find us and these timely conversations.
Thank you for listening and helping us reach 500,000+ downloads! 💛


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Interviewing politicians can be dull. Just heaps of trite talking points and evasive answers. But when you get the chance to sit down with someone who has not only a strong moral compass but a backbone to match, and who has been not only determined but also creative in using their positions to help advance climate solutions, it’s a delight. Our guest this episode, Brad Lander, is, as we say in his home borough of Brooklyn, a real one.
Brad is running for Congress (soon to be repping part of NYC on Capitol Hill), and he ran for mayor in this last cycle against/with Zohran Mamdani. But it was his work as Comptroller of NYC that solidified his reputation as a climate champion.
This conversation covers everything from divesting pension funds to making polluters pay for climate solutions, to affordability and accountability, and from investment banks to financed emissions. Plus, a glimpse into what Brad Lander aims to do on climate once he’s in Congress. Can not wait.
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Phone banking ☎️ w/ Environmental Voter Project
Wednesdays at 12p ET we call environmentalists and nudge them to the polls. Only 2 of these left until Election Day! If 12p on Wednesdays doesn’t work for you, I will miss you, but sign up for EVPs many other shifts.👇🏽
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Mentioned in this episode
* Divesting New York City pension funds, led by NYC Comptroller’s Office
* In the last decade, 60 banks have provided $7.9 trillion in financing to fossil fuel companies, with the top four banks alone — JPMorgan Chase, Citi, Wells Fargo, and Bank of America — providing more than $1.64 trillion.
* NY Climate Change Superfund Act - A bill to make polluters pay $75 billion over 25 years for climate change adaptation.
* Climate Leadership and Community Protection Act.
Credits: This episode was produced by Remoy Philip and me (Ayana), with support from Jenisha Shrestha. Original music by Emma Munger. Graphic design by Holly Griffin of Design Hungry, and social media support from Feeling Seen Studio.
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Enjoying the show? Share it, spread the word!
And review 🌟 and follow What If We Get It Right? — that helps more people find us and these timely conversations. Thank you for listening. 💛



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