AND/BOTH Podcast - Real Conversations, Shared Experiences, and the Community You've Been Missing

Dana Bahr started her Pinterest marketing business in 2020 with her laptop on an Amazon box, a baby in a carrier, and an office manager job she hadn’t quit yet. She went full time two years later. She now has five kids, a twelve-year-old who schedules client content, and a very clear philosophy: build slow, build sustainable, and build something that lets you wander.

In this conversation, Ashley and Dana talk about why Pinterest is a search engine and not a social media platform, what the “I did it in three minutes” crowd leaves out, why visibility doesn’t have to mean being on camera, and what it looks like to build a business that funds a life rather than consuming one.

In This Episode
Starting a business on a lunch break with a baby in a carrier and a laptop on an Amazon box
Two years side-by-side before going full time — and losing two clients within a month of quitting anyway
Why the “launch in six weeks and quit your job” narrative leaves out the iceberg underneath
What financial freedom actually means when you’re a single mom of three — stability, a savings cushion, and the ability to wander
Pinterest as a visual search engine — why it’s closer to Google than Instagram and what that means for business owners
Why being omnipresent on every platform is a strategy for people with a team, not solopreneurs
Content that compounds vs. content that spikes — and why you need both
Wedding professionals and the opportunity hiding in pre-Pinterest galleries (vintage sheet cake, anyone?)
Why visibility doesn’t have to mean being on camera — and how Dana got confident enough to show up anyway
The twelve-year-old who now schedules Pinterest content for three clients and earns money from the business
The Style Pin Collection membership — thirty pin graphics a month, plug-and-play, forty-seven dollars
The Pinterest strategy intensive — ninety-day content calendar built from your existing assets
Building slow and sustainable on purpose — automations, systems, and not sitting at the desk after 4pm
Not everything is Pinterest perfect — and what actually goes into the before

Quotes From This Episode

“I wanted a lot of different variations of freedom. Time freedom being the majority of it because I’m very wander-filled.”
— Dana Bahr
“Visibility doesn’t have to mean being on camera. It is possible to grow a business and not keep your face.”
— Dana Bahr
“It’s the tip of the iceberg that everyone sees — do it in three minutes. But underneath that iceberg is a lot of work that got you to that place.”
— Dana Bahr
“Not everything is Pinterest perfect. And if it is Pinterest perfect, there is a whole lot that went into getting it perfect.”
— Dana Bahr
“The idea that you quit your job and just walk outside with a sign and someone hands you a hundred thousand dollars is Looney Tunes.”
— Ashley Blackington

Find Dana
Instagram: @danas.desk.nc
Podcast: The Unapologetic Pinner
Style Pin Collection membership: $47/month — find via Instagram or The Unapologetic Pinner
Pinterest marketing for wedding planners

Connect with Ashley:
Website: https://www.ashleyblackington.com
Podcast website: https://www.andbothpodcast.com/
Dovetail® App: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/dovetail-app/id6744341822
Instagram: @mydovetail.app
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleyblackington/

Lana Pummill started her business in 2019 charging twelve dollars an hour. In 2021, her marriage ended when the twins were three months old, and that business — scrappy and underpaid as it was — became the thing that made leaving possible. She said it directly: without it, she wouldn’t have had the financial means to get out.

She’s been building ever since. From her mom’s house. From the food bank line at six in the morning. Through a hail mary cold email that changed the direction of everything. In this conversation, Ashley and Lana talk about what it looks like to build a business when you’re starting from zero, why financial independence isn’t a luxury for women in hard situations, and what the pivot from survival mode to actual freedom looks like in real time.

In This Episode
Single mom of four — a twelve-year-old, a ten-year-old, and boy-girl twins — and how that shapes everything
Starting a business in 2019 for twelve dollars an hour — and the awkward conversation that follows when you undercharge for a year
The marriage ending when the twins were three months old — and why having a business made leaving possible
Living with her mom, going to the food bank at six in the morning — what the early years actually looked like
The hail mary cold email — how responding to a newsletter got her in front of the right person at exactly the right time
Why brutally honest networking lands with the right people — and why that’s the whole point
The pivot from social media scheduling to cold pitching to consulting — and why the business keeps finding its own shape
AI — the good, the cold, and why treating it like a rough draft is smarter than treating it like a shortcut
Why you can’t outsource the human voice and what happens when you try
The Water Llama hydration app and what it says about who’s actually designing these things
The McDonald’s parking lot breakdown — an hour and fifteen minutes from home with four kids, a hundred degrees, and a car that wouldn’t start
What the freedom she built the business for actually looks like now — and why consulting is getting her closer
Her long-term goal: building something for moms who are financially stuck and need a way out
Why you have to figure out you first before the tools and platforms can help

Quotes From This Episode
“If I wouldn’t have had my business, I wouldn’t have had the financial means to get out of the marriage that I was in.”
— Lana Pummill
“I was at a food bank at six in the morning because I couldn’t get groceries.”
— Lana Pummill
“It all comes down to whether you still believe in it or not. If you enjoy what you’re doing, ’cause I really do love what I’m doing.”
— Lana Pummill
“Treat it like your rough draft.”
— Lana Pummill (on AI)
“You have to figure out you first. And then you can go apply the tools and platforms and all that stuff.”
— Ashley Blackington

Find Lana
LinkedIn: Lana Pummill
Website: lanapummill.com

Connect with Ashley:
Website: https://www.ashleyblackington.com
Podcast website: https://www.andbothpodcast.com/
Dovetail® App: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/dovetail-app/id6744341822
Instagram: @mydovetail.app
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleyblackington/

Lisa Avila spent fifteen years in the wine industry, left to do migrant Head Start and advocacy work with families the system was failing, quit when COVID made the impossible impossible, and built a business strategy and nonprofit strategy practice on the other side of all of it. She works mostly with women. The question they all arrive with is the same one she had to answer for herself: now what?

In this conversation, Ashley and Lisa talk about the nonprofit trap — the idea that wanting to make an impact means you have to be a martyr about it — why women who help people deserve to make real money doing it, what it’s like to be sandwiched between kids and aging parents at the same time, and what the next right step looks like when you’ve spent decades outpouring and finally have some space to ask what you actually want.

In This Episode
Mom of three boys, fifteen years in the wine industry, migrant Head Start director — how Lisa got here
The COVID moment that made her quit — and why her boss didn’t understand until she had kids of her own
The nonprofit trap — why women who want to make an impact keep being told it has to be unprofitable
Why you can make a lot of money and still help people — and why we need to stop acting like those are opposites
The golden handcuff — when the organizations saying “we support women” require them to be nonprofits to qualify
What migrant Head Start actually looks like — and what happens to student records when families move across the country
The political reality of advocacy in a conservative agricultural town in California
Red cards, rights, and what’s changed for immigrant families since COVID
The Panini generation — being sandwiched between kids and an eighty-one year old mother, in perimenopause
Three boys 17, 19, and 20 — what it’s like when two come home from college for the summer
The client going global with her nonprofit — four years from a Facebook group to international impact
The client who sat on her cancer journey poems for seven years and finally published them
What the “now what” looks like — the question every woman Lisa works with is asking
Non-negotiables: a bath every night, coffee, a walk, girlfriends who keep it real
The airstream barbecue and dive bar tour — her plan for empty nest life

Quotes From This Episode
“Why can’t we make a lot of money and still help people? There’s nothing wrong with that. Why do we have to wear our heart on our sleeve and be martyrs?”
— Lisa Avila
“I’m not putting it out there that I only work with mothers, but it’s just this energy we’re drawn to — this now what.”
— Lisa Avila
“I was checking boxes for decades. Just outpour, outpour, outpour. And what did it get me?”
— Lisa Avila
“Your impact can’t just be outpouring. It has to be self-sustaining. Otherwise that’s how everyone flames out.”
— Ashley Blackington
“I am physically hot and I am pressed for time and patience and all of the things.”
— Ashley Blackington (on the Panini generation)

Find Lisa
LinkedIn: Lisa Avila
TikTok: @LisaAvilaCo

Connect with Ashley:
Website: https://www.ashleyblackington.com
Podcast website: https://www.andbothpodcast.com/
Dovetail® App: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/dovetail-app/id6744341822
Instagram: @mydovetail.app
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleyblackington/

Lindsey Elliott spent seventeen years at a leading outdoor footwear brand — starting junior, ending as Global VP — and two months ago she left to build Product & Presence, her own company focused on brand visibility and public speaking coaching, with a particular soft spot for helping women show up in big rooms without the weight of everything they were never supposed to be carrying in the first place.

In this conversation, Ashley and Lindsey, who have been friends since University in Halifax, talk about what it looks like to leave a twenty-year career, why the safety net you build yourself is the only one that’s real, how partnership and parenting look different when there are no predetermined roles, and why making your kid breakfast every morning might be the best metric for success nobody talks about.

In This Episode
How Ashley and Lindsey met — Lyle House, Halifax, a hockey stick, and Grey’s Anatomy every Thursday
Twenty years in the outdoor industry — from retail footwear buyer to Global VP
Why Lindsey chose entrepreneurship over the next big corporate role, even when the big roles were available
The career coach she dismissed for years who turned out to be right about everything
What transition looks like when you have a twelve-year-old watching how you handle it
Product & Presence — what it is, who it’s for, and why public speaking is at the center of it
Why the only safety net that will ever exist is the one you build yourself
Women and financial independence, why self-care needs to include financial acumen
Being the primary financial provider in a same-sex partnership and what happens when that changes
How the absence of predetermined gender roles changes what partnership and parenting actually look like
The woman who couldn’t get out of her own head before a keynote and what Lindsey did about it
The backpack of garbage nobody asked for and why it shouldn’t be in the room when you’re on stage
The lacrosse kids running summer camps instead of stocking shelves and what that says about what’s coming
Making breakfast before getting after it and why that’s the whole point

Quotes From This Episode
“The only safety net that will ever exist here is the one that I create for myself.”
— Lindsey Elliott
“Success is not linear. And that’s not bad — it’s just important to acknowledge.”
— Lindsey Elliott
“If I get to make my son breakfast and put him on the school bus, and then I get to put in a day that’s as long as it needs to be — I’m good with that.”
— Lindsey Elliott
“There are no predetermined gender roles. So you define whatever that relationship looks like in the capacity that makes sense for you both.”
— Lindsey Elliott
“You’re not building the airplane while you’re trying to figure out how to fly the thing. Plane’s done. Pass the peanuts.”
— Ashley Blackington

Find Lindsey
Website: productandpresence.com
LinkedIn: search Lindsey Elliott

Connect with Ashley:
Website: https://www.ashleyblackington.com
Podcast website: https://www.andbothpodcast.com/
Dovetail® App: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/dovetail-app/id6744341822
Instagram: @mydovetail.app
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleyblackington/

Laura Danger got laid off five days into her maternity leave. Then she opened a birthday card that said best mom, best wife — and realized she couldn’t remember the last time anyone asked if she was doing okay as a person. That stack of moments became No More Mediocre, her book about the mental load, the nag paradox, and the care work that holds everything together while remaining completely invisible.

In this conversation, Ashley and Laura talk about the Truman Show moment that cracks open the life you thought you wanted, why the nag paradox is a loop you literally cannot win, what sitcom syndrome is doing to households across the country, and how a garden club in Chicago became something much bigger than anyone expected.

In This Episode
Laura’s Truman Show moment — laid off on maternity leave, a birthday card that only named her roles, and 2020 doing the rest
What the mental load actually is — and why the emotional thinking work definition matters
Weaponized incompetence — what it is and how it shows up in real relationships
The nag paradox — the corrosive loop of directing and executing, and why doing it yourself only makes it worse
Sitcom syndrome — how couples comedy on TikTok normalizes dynamics that can be genuinely toxic behind closed doors
Why high-achieving women often can’t separate their anger at the system from the person right in front of them — and what to do about it
The career rug pull as the new midlife crisis for men — and what that means for conversations about equity at home
What the 2026 Equimundo State of the World’s Fathers report found — and why it’s haunting
Linchpin exhaustion — why Ashley couldn’t snowboard freely because of what it would cost her family if she got hurt
Why believing in equal roles leads to less conflict even when the division of labor isn’t equal
Zone defense parenting — and why taking the average over time beats snapshot accounting
The garden club that became a care network — free plants, seed libraries, and neighbors who know each other’s names
No More Mediocre the book — and why the audiobook is specifically designed to listen to while you garden

Quotes From This Episode

“I felt bamboozled. I really thought I could change things or just work really hard and this would get better. And it didn’t.”
— Laura Danger
“I can’t die because I have knowledge that nobody else has. I know the schedule.”
— Laura Danger
“The nag paradox is that corrosive relationship loop where one person takes direction and the other directs.”
— Laura Danger
“It’s not just a garden club. It’s a full-blown care network.”
— Laura Danger
“I am here, I am wearing the name tag, I am doing the thing. But that doesn’t mean it’s my responsibility.”
— Ashley Blackington

Resources & Links
No More Mediocre (book): available everywhere books are sold — audiobook recommended
Libro FM (supports local bookstores): libro.fm
Instagram: @thatdarnchat
Substack: search Laura Danger
Equimundo State of the World’s Fathers 2026: equimundo.org
Fair Play by Eve Rodsky — mentioned as companion resource
Drained by Leah Ruppaner — mentioned in conversation

Connect with Ashley:
Website: https://www.ashleyblackington.com
Podcast website: https://www.andbothpodcast.com/
Dovetail® App: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/dovetail-app/id6744341822
Instagram: @mydovetail.app
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleyblackington/