AND/BOTH Podcast - Real Conversations, Shared Experiences, and the Community You've Been Missing

Lisa Avila spent fifteen years in the wine industry, left to do migrant Head Start and advocacy work with families the system was failing, quit when COVID made the impossible impossible, and built a business strategy and nonprofit strategy practice on the other side of all of it. She works mostly with women. The question they all arrive with is the same one she had to answer for herself: now what?

In this conversation, Ashley and Lisa talk about the nonprofit trap — the idea that wanting to make an impact means you have to be a martyr about it — why women who help people deserve to make real money doing it, what it’s like to be sandwiched between kids and aging parents at the same time, and what the next right step looks like when you’ve spent decades outpouring and finally have some space to ask what you actually want.

In This Episode
Mom of three boys, fifteen years in the wine industry, migrant Head Start director — how Lisa got here
The COVID moment that made her quit — and why her boss didn’t understand until she had kids of her own
The nonprofit trap — why women who want to make an impact keep being told it has to be unprofitable
Why you can make a lot of money and still help people — and why we need to stop acting like those are opposites
The golden handcuff — when the organizations saying “we support women” require them to be nonprofits to qualify
What migrant Head Start actually looks like — and what happens to student records when families move across the country
The political reality of advocacy in a conservative agricultural town in California
Red cards, rights, and what’s changed for immigrant families since COVID
The Panini generation — being sandwiched between kids and an eighty-one year old mother, in perimenopause
Three boys 17, 19, and 20 — what it’s like when two come home from college for the summer
The client going global with her nonprofit — four years from a Facebook group to international impact
The client who sat on her cancer journey poems for seven years and finally published them
What the “now what” looks like — the question every woman Lisa works with is asking
Non-negotiables: a bath every night, coffee, a walk, girlfriends who keep it real
The airstream barbecue and dive bar tour — her plan for empty nest life

Quotes From This Episode
“Why can’t we make a lot of money and still help people? There’s nothing wrong with that. Why do we have to wear our heart on our sleeve and be martyrs?”
— Lisa Avila
“I’m not putting it out there that I only work with mothers, but it’s just this energy we’re drawn to — this now what.”
— Lisa Avila
“I was checking boxes for decades. Just outpour, outpour, outpour. And what did it get me?”
— Lisa Avila
“Your impact can’t just be outpouring. It has to be self-sustaining. Otherwise that’s how everyone flames out.”
— Ashley Blackington
“I am physically hot and I am pressed for time and patience and all of the things.”
— Ashley Blackington (on the Panini generation)

Find Lisa
LinkedIn: Lisa Avila
TikTok: @LisaAvilaCo

Connect with Ashley:
Website: https://www.ashleyblackington.com
Podcast website: https://www.andbothpodcast.com/
Dovetail® App: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/dovetail-app/id6744341822
Instagram: @mydovetail.app
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleyblackington/

Lindsey Elliott spent seventeen years at a leading outdoor footwear brand — starting junior, ending as Global VP — and two months ago she left to build Product & Presence, her own company focused on brand visibility and public speaking coaching, with a particular soft spot for helping women show up in big rooms without the weight of everything they were never supposed to be carrying in the first place.

In this conversation, Ashley and Lindsey, who have been friends since University in Halifax, talk about what it looks like to leave a twenty-year career, why the safety net you build yourself is the only one that’s real, how partnership and parenting look different when there are no predetermined roles, and why making your kid breakfast every morning might be the best metric for success nobody talks about.

In This Episode
How Ashley and Lindsey met — Lyle House, Halifax, a hockey stick, and Grey’s Anatomy every Thursday
Twenty years in the outdoor industry — from retail footwear buyer to Global VP
Why Lindsey chose entrepreneurship over the next big corporate role, even when the big roles were available
The career coach she dismissed for years who turned out to be right about everything
What transition looks like when you have a twelve-year-old watching how you handle it
Product & Presence — what it is, who it’s for, and why public speaking is at the center of it
Why the only safety net that will ever exist is the one you build yourself
Women and financial independence, why self-care needs to include financial acumen
Being the primary financial provider in a same-sex partnership and what happens when that changes
How the absence of predetermined gender roles changes what partnership and parenting actually look like
The woman who couldn’t get out of her own head before a keynote and what Lindsey did about it
The backpack of garbage nobody asked for and why it shouldn’t be in the room when you’re on stage
The lacrosse kids running summer camps instead of stocking shelves and what that says about what’s coming
Making breakfast before getting after it and why that’s the whole point

Quotes From This Episode
“The only safety net that will ever exist here is the one that I create for myself.”
— Lindsey Elliott
“Success is not linear. And that’s not bad — it’s just important to acknowledge.”
— Lindsey Elliott
“If I get to make my son breakfast and put him on the school bus, and then I get to put in a day that’s as long as it needs to be — I’m good with that.”
— Lindsey Elliott
“There are no predetermined gender roles. So you define whatever that relationship looks like in the capacity that makes sense for you both.”
— Lindsey Elliott
“You’re not building the airplane while you’re trying to figure out how to fly the thing. Plane’s done. Pass the peanuts.”
— Ashley Blackington

Find Lindsey
Website: productandpresence.com
LinkedIn: search Lindsey Elliott

Connect with Ashley:
Website: https://www.ashleyblackington.com
Podcast website: https://www.andbothpodcast.com/
Dovetail® App: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/dovetail-app/id6744341822
Instagram: @mydovetail.app
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleyblackington/

Laura Danger got laid off five days into her maternity leave. Then she opened a birthday card that said best mom, best wife — and realized she couldn’t remember the last time anyone asked if she was doing okay as a person. That stack of moments became No More Mediocre, her book about the mental load, the nag paradox, and the care work that holds everything together while remaining completely invisible.

In this conversation, Ashley and Laura talk about the Truman Show moment that cracks open the life you thought you wanted, why the nag paradox is a loop you literally cannot win, what sitcom syndrome is doing to households across the country, and how a garden club in Chicago became something much bigger than anyone expected.

In This Episode
Laura’s Truman Show moment — laid off on maternity leave, a birthday card that only named her roles, and 2020 doing the rest
What the mental load actually is — and why the emotional thinking work definition matters
Weaponized incompetence — what it is and how it shows up in real relationships
The nag paradox — the corrosive loop of directing and executing, and why doing it yourself only makes it worse
Sitcom syndrome — how couples comedy on TikTok normalizes dynamics that can be genuinely toxic behind closed doors
Why high-achieving women often can’t separate their anger at the system from the person right in front of them — and what to do about it
The career rug pull as the new midlife crisis for men — and what that means for conversations about equity at home
What the 2026 Equimundo State of the World’s Fathers report found — and why it’s haunting
Linchpin exhaustion — why Ashley couldn’t snowboard freely because of what it would cost her family if she got hurt
Why believing in equal roles leads to less conflict even when the division of labor isn’t equal
Zone defense parenting — and why taking the average over time beats snapshot accounting
The garden club that became a care network — free plants, seed libraries, and neighbors who know each other’s names
No More Mediocre the book — and why the audiobook is specifically designed to listen to while you garden

Quotes From This Episode

“I felt bamboozled. I really thought I could change things or just work really hard and this would get better. And it didn’t.”
— Laura Danger
“I can’t die because I have knowledge that nobody else has. I know the schedule.”
— Laura Danger
“The nag paradox is that corrosive relationship loop where one person takes direction and the other directs.”
— Laura Danger
“It’s not just a garden club. It’s a full-blown care network.”
— Laura Danger
“I am here, I am wearing the name tag, I am doing the thing. But that doesn’t mean it’s my responsibility.”
— Ashley Blackington

Resources & Links
No More Mediocre (book): available everywhere books are sold — audiobook recommended
Libro FM (supports local bookstores): libro.fm
Instagram: @thatdarnchat
Substack: search Laura Danger
Equimundo State of the World’s Fathers 2026: equimundo.org
Fair Play by Eve Rodsky — mentioned as companion resource
Drained by Leah Ruppaner — mentioned in conversation

Connect with Ashley:
Website: https://www.ashleyblackington.com
Podcast website: https://www.andbothpodcast.com/
Dovetail® App: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/dovetail-app/id6744341822
Instagram: @mydovetail.app
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleyblackington/

Becky Selbie is a London-based psychotherapist who specialises in motherhood and maternal mental health — and she has a gift for taking the frameworks she uses in her therapy room and translating them into language that actually lands in everyday life.

In this conversation, Ashley and Becky cover a lot of ground: matrescence and why the word matters so much, the rule book that high-achieving women carry into motherhood that starts working against them the moment they get there, the mums who look like they’re coping but feel like they’re failing, the difference between motherhood and mothering, and why the inner critic telling you you’re not good enough isn’t your voice — it’s the noise of a culture that has never held mothers in the regard they deserve.

It’s one of those conversations that leaves you seeing yourself differently.

In This Episode
How Becky came to specialise in maternal mental health — giving birth and thinking “how has nobody prepared me for this?”
Matrescence — why the word matters, where it came from, and why it took 50 years to reach mainstream language
The moment Becky heard it for the first time and ran downstairs to tell her husband
Sharing the concept with her mother — who had her first child in the 1960s and was prescribed tranquilizers for what was actually matrescence
Why high-achieving women struggle in motherhood more than others — and the rule book that explains why
Mums who look like they’re coping but feel like they’re failing — and what the swan metaphor gets exactly right
The “tab open” metaphor — why you never feel fully disconnected from your children even when you’re away from them
Not loving every chapter — and why that has nothing to do with how much you love your kids
The problem with parenting content on social media — theory without context, and who pays the price
Why Becky’s clinical supervisor said “well, she will” when a client was terrified of messing up her kids — and why that was the most freeing thing she’d ever heard
Motherhood vs. mothering — the doing versus the being, and why we’re graded on the wrong one
The inner critic is the patriarchy — and why turning down its volume is the whole point
What fills Becky’s bucket: creativity, building community, and the retreat she’s planning for mums

Quotes From This Episode
“Not loving motherhood doesn’t mean that you don’t love mothering. Just because you don’t enjoy bits of motherhood, there is no connection to how you feel about your kids.”
— Becky Selbie
“The inner critic is wrong. The inner critic is the patriarchy — it’s society, it’s all those messages about what motherhood should look like. And it’s nonsense.”
— Becky Selbie
“Motherhood is the doing. Mothering is the being — the relationship, the love, the knowing them inside out. But we’re graded on the doing.”
— Becky Selbie
“Even when you’re away, there’s a tab open all the time in your head. It’s just that as they get older, the tab gets smaller.”
— Becky Selbie
“Don’t compare the back end of your business to the front end of somebody else’s.”
— Ashley Blackington

Connect with Becky:
Instagram: @_motherway_
Website: motherway.co.uk

Connect with Ashley:
Website: https://www.ashleyblackington.com
Podcast website: https://www.andbothpodcast.com/
Dovetail® App: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/dovetail-app/id6744341822
Instagram: @mydovetail.app
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleyblackington/

Katie Schlott spent 20 years in innovation — running experiments, iterating, testing what works. So when she realized her professional network had quietly gone dark during the years she was deep in parenting, she did what any good strategist would do: she designed an experiment.
Day raves. Pop-up dinners in strangers’ homes. Perfume making fundraisers. Online Slack communities. Wonder Woman dinners. A volunteer board for women’s health research. She tried all of it, wrote about it for Inc Magazine, and then came back on AND/BOTH to talk through what she actually found.
The conversation covers the new rules of networking, why smaller rooms build realer connections, how parents in particular need to rethink the whole model, and what happens when you decide to build the community you can’t find. Plus Costco. A lot about Costco.

In This Episode
Why Katie ran a networking experiment — and what the traditional model was missing
The day rave, the pop-up dinner, the perfume fundraiser — what each one taught her
The Old Girls Club and Society of Working Mothers — online communities built on realness over résumés
Wonder Woman Dinners — strangers become friends in under two hours, and why it works
“Tell me something Google doesn’t know about you” — the opener that changes everything
Why funny is sticky and vulnerability gets built through shared experiences
If you can’t find what you’re looking for, build it — Brilliant Failures, Brilliant Mothers, Mama Palooza
Joining a volunteer board for women’s health research and what that unlocked
Why big conferences are often the least efficient use of a parent’s limited time and energy
Managing your network based on energy levels, not just calendar availability
What happens when you let your network go dark — and how to rebuild authentically
How to be direct about what you’re looking for instead of hoping the room delivers it
Networking with teenagers at home — and the season-by-season nature of connection

Quotes From This Episode

“If you think you’re an N of one, you’re actually an N of 100. Just start it.”
— Katie Schlott
“Funny is sticky. Vulnerability is created in moments where you’re actually having fun with people.”
— Katie Schlott
“I want to join communities that thrive on real life, not résumés.”
— Katie Schlott
“Every single founder said: just pick one thing, just start with one. Don’t be overwhelmed, just get the ball rolling.”
— Katie Schlott
“The smaller rooms are the best. Everything that follows from a small room conversation — the email, the introduction, the follow-up — none of that ever comes from a big conference.”
— Ashley Blackington

Resources & Links
Connect with Katie on LinkedIn
Read Katie's lnc. Magazine article on "The New Rules of Networking"
Check out her consultancy and read ALL her articles (Fast Company, Inc and Business Insider)
Buy the magical Costco totes that she uses to keep her cart contents tight!

Connect with Ashley:
Website: https://www.ashleyblackington.com
Podcast website: https://www.andbothpodcast.com/
Dovetail® App: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/dovetail-app/id6744341822
Instagram: @mydovetail.app
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleyblackington/