WLEI - Lean Enterprise Institute’s Podcast

In this episode of the WLEI Podcast, we speak with executive coach and engineering leader Sarah Milstein about how to keep teams focused on value creation by putting people at the center of work design. 

My conversation with Sarah explores: 

How to create cultures of respect as a leader 

How companies can simplify job roles, salaries, and raises to focus employees on high-value work  

Sarah’s advice for how engineering and product leaders can successfully navigate this moment in tech, including the trends that will pass and the trends that will stick 

How to work with teams of engineers to create the conditions for continuous learning 

How to support people well so that teams build strong, sustainable lean product and process development systems  

About Sarah Milstein 

Sarah Milstein coaches executive and emerging leaders in tech. Previously, she held executive roles at a number of tech startups and in the federal government. She was also CEO and co-founder of Lean Startup Productions. Earlier, she was a freelance journalist writing regularly for The New York Times. She holds an MBA from UC Berkeley's Haas School of Business. https://sarahmilstein.com

In this episode of the WLEI Podcast, we speak with Julia Austin about what the lean product and process development principle “Put People First” looks like in practice.  

An executive fellow at Harvard Business School, Julia is an executive coach with experience leading successful product teams in tech at companies like Akamai Technologies, VMware, Inc., and DigitalOcean. She is also author of the book, After the Idea: What It Really Takes to Create and Scale a Startup.  

My conversation with Julia explores: 

How to create effective collaboration across people and teams to support an excellent product or service 

Where leaders and teams struggle in product development in 2025 

How leaders can support people to drive high-performance 

Standout moments of people working together vastly improve a product and service 

How to leverage AI while keeping human beings at the center of work design 

Why a culture of care and respect builds teams of responsible experts

In this week’s edition of The Management Brief, Josh Howell, LEI President, and Mark Reich, LEI Chief Engineer Strategy, speak with Nelson Repenning, School of Management Distinguished Professor of System Dynamics and Organization Studies at the MIT Sloan School of Management. Nelson also is the co-author of There’s Got to Be a Better Wayi and the Co-Founder and Chief Social Scientist of ShiftGear Work Design, a consultancy that focuses on understanding the factors that contribute to the successful implementation, execution, and improvement of business processes. 

This month The Management Brief is presenting theories that are guiding organizational transformations, including Nelson’s dynamic work design, an “anti-initiative” approach for redesigning work to solve the right problems effectively and, in doing so, increase productivity, profits, and associate engagement.  

Dynamic work design helps organizations challenge the mindset that they can forecast and plan — budget, strategy, human resources, capital — with accuracy. Nelson’s alternative: “If we accept that the world is not perfectly predictable, we might go back and design some of our core processes a little bit differently to create an organization that not only plans but also is capable of learning from experience and adapting to the new information they get as they go.”  

Dynamic work design is based on five principles: 

Solve the right problem: This principle is “a charge to focus on bite-sized pieces of important problems and use structured methods, whether it’s the A3 or DMAIC or whatever your preferred version is to make sure that you actually solve that problem in a fundamental way,” says Nelson. 

Structure for discovery: This involves configuring every job in the organization so that the individual doing the job learns the right lessons and can get feedback to adjust behaviors to do work in the right way. 

Connect the human chain: “Let’s leverage the collective intelligence of the organization by making sure that problems quickly get to the person who is in the best position to solve them,” instructs Nelson. “So it’s essentially a charge to wire together the information flow so that knowledge about a particular issue gets to the right place and gets there quickly.” 

Regulate for flow: This is a version of Toyota pull that involves making sure there is the right amount of work in the system to prevent “traffic jams” of work. 

Visualize the work: This principle helps to apply visualization usually found in physical work to knowledge work, which frequently lacks such signals. “If we can create a kind of digital twin or radar screen ...  so that we can see whether knowledge work is moving or not, it often unlocks a lot of that natural problem solving that you would get in other contexts if the work were a little bit more available to us,” explains Nelson. 

Nelson described how the Broad Institute, a research organization dedicated to understanding the roots of disease and closing the gap between new biological insights and impact for patients, successfully applied dynamic work design in a knowledge-work environment to improve research grant workflows. The institute had one grant process that was particularly problematic, time-consuming, frustrated staff, and required workarounds.  

Sheila Dodge, COO of Broad Clinical Labs, followed the dynamic work design principles in a direct manner and set clear targets: get grants approved in 10 days rather than the 20 or 30 days that it was taking. “They mapped the process pretty carefully so you could see all the steps that they went through. And then ... they created a really simple visual management system to plot how the work was flowing or track how the work was flowing,” says Nelson. Using a white board they depicted steps in the process, with a sticky note representing each grant moving through the process, which quickly revealed their poor design choices. They then reconfigured resources and the work started flowing dramatically. 

The trio also discussed Nelson’s work relating to: 

The efficacy of face-to-face communications: When designing processes for getting work done, face-to-face communications should in place where most helpful, such as where there is ambiguity or uncertainty that needs to be processed. “We have discovered that often a daily meeting can replace, if it’s well designed, hundreds of emails a day if you design the meeting [to] bring all the uncertainty into the meeting,” says Nelson. 

Seagull management: This refers to the uncomplimentary behavior of managers who, when there is a crisis, “fly in like a flock of seagulls and then sort of poop on everything and then fly away.” Nelson says that “as leaders get more senior, they really underestimate the symbolic impact of their actions... The thing that people don’t understand when they get to those corner offices is that everybody is looking at them to try to figure out what behaviors are appropriate in this organization. They are the chief role model, whether they like it or not. And so I think as a consequence, with the best of intentions, leaders often have really pathological impacts on their organization.”  

AI will change work dynamics: “There’s no question that AI is going to change our lives in very material ways,” says Nelson. “But I actually think it is going to put an even greater premium on the kinds of things that we collectively do... It’s best captured by one of my former students [who] said, ‘You know, there’s few ways to lose money faster than automating a process you don’t understand.’ I think that’s going to be very true in the machine learning AI-enabled world, and I think it’s going to put a real premium on understanding how the work actually gets done. And then using these new tools in very strategic ways.”

This month The Management Brief will explore prominent lean theories that have been guiding organizations in their lean transformations. This week, Josh Howell, LEI President, and Mark Reich, LEI Chief Engineer Strategy, are joined by Dr. Steven Spear, renown lean expert and senior lecturer at MIT.  

Steven is co-author of Wiring the Winning Organization: Liberating our Collective Greatness through Slowification, Simplification, and Amplification,1 which examines how some companies over the last 150 years have led markets by solving their most important problems better, faster, and easier than the competition. The trio discuss Steven’s work and his 30-plus years of lean learnings. 

Steven recalls his start at the Toyota Production System Support Center (TSSC), when Mark was one of his mentors and sensei along with the Hajime Obha. He was thrust into all things lean and trying to grasp the Toyota Production System (TPS), without much clear instruction of principles and tools, instead just guidance to go and see and find things that were broken. “What I realized was going on is that they were teaching me to look for broken things, and the reason why they weren’t telling me how is they wanted to first see what was broken in my approach,” says Steven. “So there was this layer of see a problem, solve a problem. That becomes sort of a mantra in my work about how we organize our behavior, how we architect our processes, how we architect our processes so that we can immediately see where we’re wrong and use that as an immediate trigger to swarm onto the situation, figure out why it’s wrong, and how to make it right.” 

Steven grasped that TPS is a system built around the ability to see problems and respond to them quickly. “It’s a simple thing to say, but the hard work is to keep pushing and pushing and pushing so you can see problems in greater detail, with greater accuracy, at smaller scale, sooner before they have a chance to become big problems. And everything else I think I’ve done since that moment ... has been elaboration on those points.” 

The trio go on to discuss: 

Steven’s immersion in Toyota led to the groundbreaking article, “Decoding the DNA of the Toyota Production System,”2 which puts forward rules for how to design systems that establish standards, capture understanding, enable individuals to see when things go wrong, and then fix the problems they find.  

High-Velocity Edge,3 Steven’s first book, was built on the insights that the way for companies to compete is on solving increasingly more problems at greater depth and breadth and faster (velocity). He eventually wrote Wiring the Winning Organization, which states more explicitly that “winner’s win because they’re just much better at seeing and solving problems than anybody else.” 

Steven describes three layers behind the slowification, simplification, and amplification framework: 1) compete on ability to see and solve problems, 2) understand the instrumentation and ingenuity through which individuals work, and 3) architect the social circuitry in all processes, procedures, and routines by which the work of individuals is integrated into collective action toward common purpose. 

A problem-solving danger zone for companies is when iteration and experimentation are inhibited. To get into a winning zone requires slowification (committed time and space to solve problems), simplification (simplify problems at the operating level rather than moving them up and down silos), and amplification (see problems earlier and more often when they are small). 

Leaders need to liberate people’s ingenuity rather than maximize efficiency, according to Steven. “There’s too much in society where leaders think their job is to somehow collect data, do analysis, and then tell other people what to do.” While a fan of AI, Steven fears that leaders who are predisposed to data collection, analytics, and command and control management will turn AI into “an unholy devil for the rest of us” and dismiss creativity, dismiss ingenuity, and commitment to mission. 

Steven and his co-author Gene Kim have tried to harmonize problem-solving ideas across different communities of thought. “We’ve all had the experience where someone says, ‘This must be a lean problem vs. a Six Sigma problem vs. a DevOps problem vs. an agile problem.’ Folks, it’s a people problem. That’s it. It’s people who are in a relationship and either relationships aren’t working because they can’t see problems, they can’t solve problems, or they can’t systematize what they learned. And so we thought we were doing some kind of service here to simplify the language so people could speak and collaborate across domains.”

Optimism about organizations’ abilities to transform: “Outside in a personal life, [people are] striving so hard to be valued by others. This is not in sort of any kind narcissistic, weak way. It’s just this is what people try to do. This gets back to like our creative origins in that we want to do things useful and valuable to others. And then we bring them into the workplace, and we tell them none of that: we’re going to be demeaning of you, of your potential, your opportunity, your chance for appreciation. So all we’re saying is, what we've naturally been created or evolved to do, just extend that into the workplace. Mark, that’s my source of optimism because when you start having conversations with people that way and get them to talk about all the joy they have as coach of this, as head of that, as volunteer here, it’s like, don’t leave that at the door. Bring it in. And people, when you say, ‘Oh, that’s what you want me to do, yeah,’ they’re happy to do that.”

Josh Howell, LEI President, and Mark Reich, LEI Chief Engineer Strategy, are joined by Jon Armstrong, Co-Founder and CEO of Do It American MFG Company, which produces goods for public utilities. Jon started the company in 2008 and is an advocate for U.S.-based manufacturing. Earlier in his career as a manager at Walker Corporation he learned about the Toyota Production System (TPS) directly from the eminent Hajime Oba while being assisted by the Toyota Production System Support Center (TSSC).  

This month The Management Brief explores how leaders transform and rethink traditional management approaches to achieve success with lean. Jon remembers the “wonderful experience” of working alongside Mr. Oba “that honestly changed my life and resulted in some successes and the company that we’re building today.” 

Jon learned TPS by doing and experimenting because Mr. Oba and TSSC staff would never directly advise a path to improvement: “One of the main things I learned real quick is — especially with Mr. Oba because he didn’t really say very much — you really had to work hard and pay attention to what he was paying attention to. That was the key thing, to try to understand in manufacturing and processes what was important. They would tell you, but they wouldn’t tell you by telling you. They’d tell you by paying attention to certain things.” 

Some of highlights of the trio’s discussion includes: 

Leadership style learned from Mr. Oba: “I just loved being around him,” says Jon. “He seemed like a nice guy. He took things so seriously, and there was such a sense about him of really caring — about not only the process and transferring the knowledge, but also a real caring for the people that were working within the process. I just really appreciated that. I try to do that as much as I can moving forward with the folks we’ve got here.”  

Living the TSSC mission: Mark, who was a general manager at TSSC, says that Jon has realized the mission of TSSC to help organizations improve and keep manufacturing in the United States. Jon replies, “From TSSC, what they really gave me is that the learning I had gave me the confidence that we could do a manufacturing company and do it better than the people we were competing with. If you apply TPS — just some of the principles — and you do a good job of that, people using traditional methods are not going to be able to compete with you.” 

Kaizen learnings from TSSC: The purpose of kaizen is not the improvement that is generated but learning how to improve. Jon says, “People think the way you improve is you do kaizen events; the kaizen event is the improvement. It wasn’t. Those are really training events. The kaizen event was to teach us how to do improvement.” 

Respect people and promote problem solving: Josh recalls his visit to Do It American MFG, where he saw an “abundance” of respect for the people doing the work. For example, the company uses an andon system to assist employees when problems arise, to which leaders try to respond rapidly with assistance, not blame, to encourage the identification of problems. “If you’re responsive and you don’t blame them, they are much more willing to share and help become part of the problem-solving solution. It works really well. One thing we’ve done is we have taken the fear away.” Some employees have come from companies with a bad culture and, says Jon, “it’s fascinating how long it takes to unlearn what goes on if somebody works in a bad culture where they get beat up for making a mistake or causing a defect.”