JCO Oncology Practice Podcast

Dr. Pennell and Dr. Friedman discuss the variety of ethical dilemmas for health care providers brought on by COVID-19. NATE PENNELL: Hello, and welcome to the latest JCO Oncology Practice Podcast, brought to you by the ASCO Podcast Network, a collection of nine programs covering a range of educational and scientific content, and offering enriching insight into the world of cancer care. You can find all recordings, including this one, at podcast.asco.org My name is Dr. Nate Pennell, Medical Oncologist at the Cleveland Clinic, and consultant editor for the JCOOP. I have no conflicts of interest related to this podcast, and a complete list of disclosures is available at the end of the podcast. Today I want to talk about a very serious topic that all of us who care for cancer patients really had at the front of our minds back in the spring of 2020. While it may already seem like a long time ago, when the COVID pandemic was at its peak in the United States, New York City was being inundated with of COVID. And for a while there was quite a bit of uncertainty about whether they might run out of personal protective equipment or ventilators. And there were very serious discussions happening about allocation of resources. I personally remember patients asking me, even here in Ohio, if they might not be offered a ventilator if they became sick, because of their cancer diagnosis. And while this certainly never came close to happening in Ohio, I think it actually came closer than we'd like to admit in places like New York. With me today to discuss this really fascinating topic is Liz Blackler, who is the program manager for the Ethics Committee and Consult Service at Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center in New York City. We'll be discussing the upcoming manuscript from her and her colleagues titles, "COVID-19-related Ethics Consultations at a Cancer Center in New York City-- a Content Review of Ethics Consultations During the Early Stages of the Pandemic," which was published online August 27, 2020 in the JCOOP. Welcome Liz, and thank you for joining me on the podcast. LIZ BLACKLER: Thank you so much for having me here today. I'm definitely looking forward to discussing our manuscripts with you. Just to note, I do not have any relationships or disclosures related to this study. NATE PENNELL: Thank you. So what was it like to be really in the epicenter of the COVID pandemic back in the spring? LIZ BLACKLER: There was a lot of uncertainty. We were all just trying to find our way, to figure it all out. Staff was just reconciling what was happening in real time in the city and the world, and then looking into our own hallways, seeing what was happening there. I would say it was both chaotic and eerily quiet. Our ethics consultation service, as with many ethics consultation services in the hospital, went virtual. So only those people who needed to be on site were there. And the rest of us were working from home. And so I think as a staff, we were adjusting to doing our jobs remotely, and also watching and feeling the enormity of what was happening at the hospital with patients, and feeling just a little bit far away. NATE PENNELL: So you are in charge of the ethics consult service. I think anyone who's ever been involved in a case that needs to involve the ethics consult service knows how incredibly interesting a job that must be, and complicated. Can you just, before we get into the COVID thing, explain what an inpatient ethics consult team does, and who is on that team? LIZ BLACKLER: Sure. So ethics consultations are most frequently requested to help analyze and resolve complex value-laden concerns that arise between or among clinicians, and patients, and/or families. Anyone-- clinicians, non-clinician staff, patients, family members, health care agents, surrogate decision makers can request an ethics consultation. And depending on the situation, the consultant may facilitate communication between the stakeholders. This also involves clarifying treatment options and prognosis. Our consultants also help opine moral reasoning and ethical principles to certain situations. And we spend quite a bit of time confirming and clarifying state and federal laws, and hospital policy, and how it relates to the specific patient at hand. In general, the ethics consultants work closely with all parties to help identify acceptable courses of action. Our clinical ethics consultation team is a standing subgroup of the ethics committee. And the group is voluntary, and is comprised of 10 MSK employees from a variety of disciplines. These consultants are additionally trained in clinical ethics. And currently we have nurses and physician assistants, nurse practitioners, social workers, and physicians representing psychiatry and critical care medicine. So we work in a single-modeled service, meaning consultants work independently, and then reach out to other consultants for assistance as needed. So we are a busy service at baseline. And during COVID, our ethics consultations actually doubled. NATE PENNELL: Yeah, I can see that when you start to delve into your paper, and the issues that came up. And what are the special ethical concerns that arose that might involve COVID in patients with cancer that differed from the usual things you would see patients about in the hospital? LIZ BLACKLER: Sure, it was actually what spurred us to do a retrospective review on our ethics consultation service. We encountered two, I would think, unique issues that came up that we had not previously seen before on the ethics consultation service. Our very first COVID-19-related ethics consult focused on a patient with decisional capacity who was admitted to the floor, and wanted to be discharged against medical advice while he was waiting for his COVID-19 test to come back. In the beginning, it was taking a couple of days to get those results back. Staff was very concerned if a patient would not adequately quarantine at home, while we are waiting for the results. In fact, he said he would not quarantine, that he would be out in the subway, and this and that. So we were called in to assist in clarifying whether respecting this patient's autonomy to leave the hospital AMA outweighed our obligation to keep the patient in isolation, and prevent him from potentially spreading the infection. We had never encountered an issue like that before. So in that case, we were able to support the patient, and help him understand the reasoning why he needed to stay. In the early days of the pandemic, as we were just sorting out what was causing the spread of COVID, I think we would have likely leaned towards figuring out a way to keep him, as long as we could. It's always tricky in that we don't want to override someone's autonomy, unless absolutely necessary. And so there were two cases like this, where we really had to weigh the risk to the public against individual autonomy of the patient. NATE PENNELL: Yeah, I know. It's very interesting to think about something like that. At first blush, it seems as though there would be no legal way to keep someone if they wanted to leave. But then switch it out and say, well this patient has Ebola now, and wants to go out on their own. And suddenly it jumps to the front of your mind that maybe it's not quite so simple. It also, I think, illustrates nicely what the ethics team does, which is not necessarily to come in and deliver an academic treatise on the ethical principles of who's right and who's wrong, but to help negotiate the different parties to come to an acceptable agreement. LIZ BLACKLER: Exactly. And in a similar case, we had a family who was wanting to leave the hospital, and go to a local hotel. But at the time, the hotels were either COVID-positive hotels or COVID-negative hotels. And this family insisted on having their loved ones stay at the hotel that was a COVID negative hotel. And so the staff called a similar consult line to know whether they had an obligation to share the patient's medical status with the hotel. And in a similar mind, we did just what you said. We pulled the whole team together. We met with the patient and family, expressed our concerns, and actually helped identify an acceptable hotel that would make a concession, that was in the geographic location of where they wanted to be, that would in fact sterilize and come up with its own private entrance for this patient. So everybody was happy, right? We knew he would be safe, and the family got to have this loved one closer to home. NATE PENNELL: I'm sure that doesn't always end up with such a good result at the end. But that sounds like a good job. So you had some fascinating consults. So most of your manuscript is describing some of the examples of the types of scenarios that you had to address. So can you take us through some of those, both just like the general themes and then maybe some specific examples? LIZ BLACKLER: Of course. So like I said, we performed a retrospective review of all of our COVID-19 ethics-related consults that happened between mid-March and the end of April. There were 26 consults total performed on 24 unique patients. The most common ethical issue was related to code status. So these were patients. Staff members were concerned about incubating, or performing cardiopulmonary resuscitation, because of the high risk for aerosolizing procedures. If you remember, at the beginning of the pandemic, there was a high level of anxiety about supply shortage of personal protective equipment. So staff was very concerned about whether it was ethically appropriate to provide CPR for our patients with poor prognosis, because many, if not most of our patients at that time, not only had advanced cancer, but they had concurrent COVID-19 infection. They had a poor prognosis. Because there was a lot of risks to providing the CPR and intubation with minimal benefit, and so more than half of our consults came through that were questioning that, this idea of non-beneficial treatment. NATE PENNELL: Well, I guess it's hard not to stop, and talk about that a little bit. So you've got a patient with advanced cancer, who presumably wants to be full code, but is COVID positive. How do you even start to address something like that with the patient and the staff who are worried? LIZ BLACKLER: As you know, many of our patients with advanced cancer and respiratory distress, it's quite hard to have conversations with them for lots of reasons. I think complicating the situation was we had a zero visitor policy at that time at the hospital. So all hospitals in the state had zero visitor policies. There was no family or caregivers or agents at bedside. We had family at home listening to the news, and they're recognizing how important something like a ventilator was for patients with COVID, as a bridge to recovery. And many family members very much wanted to give their loved one an opportunity to recover from COVID, despite something like a stage 4 lung cancer diagnosis with no [INAUDIBLE] And so as you can imagine, on a day-to-day basis pre-COVID, we do a lot of goals of care discussion. So we spend a lot of time with patients and families trying to help them understand the limitations to treatment at the end of life, and what is ethically and morally appropriate, and what may not be the right thing to do. And so we had to apply all of those same tactics in a very expedited fashion, talking with family who were isolated and removed from the situation, who could not be at bedside with their loved one to try to help them come to terms with what was happening. What you may not know is New York state has a law that says full code, cardiopulmonary resuscitation is the de facto intervention for all patients, unless they consent specifically to a do-not-resuscitate order. So we were obligated by law to perform cardiopulmonary resuscitation on all patients with families who wanted it. And so we spent a lot of time talking with our families to help them understand what's happening. And some of those patients did have cardiopulmonary resuscitation, and others understood the gravity of the situation, and were more amenable to do-not-resuscitate orders. NATE PENNELL: Yeah, it must have been incredibly challenging. But any other themes that arose in terms of the consults that you received? LIZ BLACKLER: Interestingly we had three or four consults that came through by staff that were concerned that patients were requesting a do-not-resuscitate order prematurely, that it was not standard of care for their clinical situation. What we suspected that it was the converse of what was happening. Patients and families had this altruistic response to the local and national focus on scarce resources. So saying, wow, we understand how difficult things are right now. We're OK. Please focus your resources on someone else. NATE PENNELL: Wow. LIZ BLACKLER: So that was-- NATE PENNELL: Yeah, I can imagine that would have been-- well hopefully, I guess, that might not have been quite as challenging. Because maybe some of that might have been a lack of understanding about the prognosis, and people who actually did have a reasonable prognosis might-- I don't know if they were convinced to change their minds, or they generally just supported their decision. LIZ BLACKLER: We did a little of both. I think in two of the situations, we were able to help families understand the nuances of the situation, and they agreed to a trial intubation. Other families were insistent that this was not in line with their loved one's wishes, which might have been separate from the COVID-19 pandemic. One thing we did do with the hospitals early in the pandemic, we requested, mandated if you will, that all outpatient oncologists communicate and document the goals of care conversation with their patients on admission within 24 hours. And so each patient that was admitted to the hospital had a discussion. All those who could had discussions with their outpatient primary oncologist about diagnosis, treatment options at present, and what their wishes were regarding goals of care. And that very much helped the ethics consultation service and the services in the hospital provide care that was aligned with not only treatment options, but the patient's and family's wishes. NATE PENNELL: That's really interesting. Because many people were listening to this podcast might think, well, gosh. Shouldn't you do that anyway when someone gets admitted to the hospital with advanced cancer? But perhaps the pandemic offered an opportunity, because patients were thinking about it now, as opposed to oftentimes when they get admitted and it suddenly is a bit of a shock to be presented with the question of what they would want if they needed to be resuscitated. LIZ BLACKLER: Agreed. I think it's a natural opportunity for us to continue to strengthen our need for and goals of care conversations for all of our patients, whether they're stage one cancers or stage four cancers. And so I think it was this natural time where everybody was talking about it. And it just felt it was-- it was just made sense for us to do. And it is something that we've been trying to continue as a hospital. These conversations are hard to have. Patients and families are not always receptive. Clinicians are not always ready to have those conversation either. And so if anything, the pandemic brought us all together, and we all recognize in the anticipation of scarce resources how can we best take care of these patients. What's first and foremost is we have to have a better understanding of what our patient's wishes and preferences are. NATE PENNELL: One of the things that continues, at least to some extent in a lot of places, is the restrictions on visitors and caregivers in the hospital, although perhaps not as strict as it was back in the spring. How did the inability of caregivers and powers of attorney and things like that to physically be present impact your job? And I guess more broadly, how does being forced to work over a sort of video conferencing impact these conversations? LIZ BLACKLER: Sure. I think the level of distress secondary to the limited or lack of visitors at bedside, was palpable. So the nursing staff, the clinical staff, and non-clinical staff who were in the hospital at bedside every day were very upset. It was an incredibly sad time. And that in itself led to more ethics consultations, the amount of distress. And so we as a consultation service, worked hard in our virtual platform to provide extra support to staff who were trying to manage these patients to really take care of them in a way, in a kind and compassionate way in the midst of all of this chaos. We started something called a virtual ethics open office hours. We actually set up a virtual Zoom twice a week where my consultants would sit on the Zoom call and just field questions, general questions that were coming up from staff. Because there was a lot of anticipation of what was to come, and how the hospital was prepared, how we were prepared to take care of patients, if we were to not have enough ventilators, or if we were not have enough blood products. And so the anticipation of all of that was very extremely stressful for staff, and I think compounded by the fact that there was no support at bedside for the patients. I would say as a consultant service, going virtual certainly had its hiccups at first. But I actually think in the long run, we were able to really support patients and caregivers in a different way. There were more families that were able to participate in some of the family meetings, if they were scattered around the tri-state area or the country even. And so once everybody was acclimated to using these platforms, staff and family alike, then there were more opportunities for families to engage and participate in these family meetings. We were able to outfit many of our rooms with video access so that the patients who were able to participate were also able to participate, to be there [INAUDIBLE] NATE PENNELL: It sounds like you did the best with what you could. And certainly it was tough on our patients, because they didn't have anyone to be there with them. But I can see the benefits of bringing people in who otherwise might have had trouble participating. So I wanted to just briefly touch upon something that I'm not sure if everyone realized this. But in anticipation of being completely inundated and running out of ventilators and whatnot, some hospitals were putting together protocols on how they would allocate resources. And it sounds like you may have been part of putting something like that together for your hospital. I know it was never needed. But can you talk a little bit about that? LIZ BLACKLER: Sure. I think one of our obligations as an ethics committee is we have a duty to plan, and a duty to steward resources, and a duty to be transparent about it. So early in the pandemic, the ethics committee was asked to draft allocation policy in the event that we had a scarcity of equipment, or staff, resources, blood products. I remember being sent home from the office to start writing that policy. And I actually haven't been back since. What I will say is although an incredibly difficult policy to write, it was heart-wrenching for all of the reasons that you can imagine. It felt important to at least have a framework in place just in case. And so we made a decision as an ethics committee and consultation service to model the framework after the New York State ventilator guidelines that were published in 2015. We made some slight modifications to address our unique cancer patient population. We chose the New York State guidelines, because they were developed just a few years before with support from our state government. The guidelines were also publicly available, and we assumed had passed with public support. There are no perfect guidelines. And so for us, in many ways we were lucky to have had a blueprint, something to work with in our state. While acknowledging that without state support, we were fully aware that if the crisis standards of care were needed, they needed to be implemented statewide with consistency. We also struggled with trying to recognize that the policies needed to take into account inequities in access and delivery of health care, with special considerations for inherent bias, based on socioeconomic, racial, ethnic, age, and others with disabilities. I think as a bioethics community, we're working to update allocation policy that acknowledges and begins to rectify such bias. And so we're able to think about that now, looking back on what's happened a few months ago. But in real time, what we had with the New York state guidelines, which I think is a good start, those guidelines are your classic guidelines that look to maximize benefit of resource in order to save as many lives as possible. The [INAUDIBLE] is given to patients for whom resources would most likely be lifesaving. We put into place a classic triage process that was grounded in a clinical scoring system. And we also made sure to remove the triage decisions from the bedside clinician, instead relying on a triage committee that would be made up of critical care physicians, administration, ethics consultants, or committee members, and other senior staff from the hospital to help make these determinations based on this clearly spelled out criteria, knowing that there were flaws in those criteria. And so we did put together a policy. We thankfully did not have to implement that policy. But we have the policy put into place. NATE PENNELL: And that, I think, leads us really nicely into my last question, which is really what did you learn from all of this going forward? So if this happens again, hopefully not with COVID, but another emergency or something that leads to strained resources; what take-home lessons can you take from this that will make that perhaps an easier situation the next time? LIZ BLACKLER: Sure I'll approach it from a macro and a micro standpoint. So within the hospital, one of the things that we learned is that our clinician's preoccupation and distress when confronted with these difficult choices in the pandemic, with the anticipation of a scarce resource, was palpable. And that as an ethics consultation service, we have an obligation to put together a center-based initiative to really support staff in real time. And so going virtual quickly, setting up services for staff that are proactive instead of reactive, it has been very helpful. And so I mentioned the virtual ethics clinics or office hours as one way to reach a lot of staff quickly, and to provide support in real time. I think the other issue I touched on briefly, and that is working within the state and the country to come up with acceptable allocation policies that acknowledge bias, that acknowledged disparities in health care, and delivery of health care, and access to health care are extremely important. So one thing that has come out of this that I'm very proud of, as a hospital we at Memorial Sloan Kettering, we reached out to all of our colleagues in the city and upstate New York, and have recently just for formed an Empire State Bioethics Consortium. So all of the chairs of the bioethics departments from around the state, we now meet on a regular Monday night phone calls, to talk about what's happened, anticipation for future, and really working on a broad range of ethical issues that affect New York State. NATE PENNELL: Liz, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. LIZ BLACKLER: Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. NATE PENNELL: I'm glad we're going to have the opportunity to highlight your manuscript, which I think is really going to be beneficial to people who hopefully will not be presented with this in the future. But if they are, it's something to get them thinking. And until next time, I want to thank our listeners for listening to the JCO Oncology Practice podcast. If you enjoyed what you heard today, don't forget to give us a rating or a review on Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen. While you're there, be sure to subscribe, so you never miss an episode. JCOOP podcasts are just one of ASCO's as many podcast programs. You can find all the recordings at podcast.asco.org. And the full text of this paper is available online at ascopubs.org, backslash journal, backslash op. And this is Dr. Nate Pennell for the JCO Oncology Practice signing off. Thanks for listening. SPEAKER 1: The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care, and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement. For more original research, editorials, and review articles; please visit us online at jco.org. This production is copyrighted to the American Society of Clinical Oncology. Thank you for listening.

Dr. Pennell and Dr. Jennifer Tsui discuss the processes that lead to suboptimal EOL care within Medicaid populations and among racial/ethnic minority groups.     Hello, and welcome to the latest JCO Oncology Practice podcast, brought to you by the ASCO Podcast Network, a collection of nine programs covering a range of educational and scientific content and offering enriching insight into the world of cancer care. You can find all recordings, including this one, at podcast.asco.org. My name is Dr. Nate Pennell, medical oncologist at the Cleveland Clinic and consultant editor for the JCO OP. I have no conflicts of interest related to this podcast, and a complete list of disclosures is available at the end of the podcast. Aggressive care at the end of life for cancer patients is widely recognized as poor-quality care. And by aggressive care, I don't mean aggressive supportive care or hospice, but rather inappropriate interventions, like chemotherapy or hospital and ICU admissions, near the end of life that rarely improve outcomes and often actually worsen quality of life. Efforts are being made to educate physicians and cancer patients to try to minimize aggressive treatments near the end of life and to help as many patients as possible benefit from things like hospice benefits and appropriate end-of-life care. However, not all patients receive high-quality end-of-life care, and there may be differences in end-of-life care in various populations. For example, how do race and things like Medicaid status impact aggressive care at the end of life? With me today to discuss this topic is Dr. Jennifer Tsui, Assistant Professor in the Division of Population Science at Rutgers Cancer Institute of New Jersey. We'll be discussing her paper "Racial Disparities in Health Care Utilization at the End of Life Among New Jersey Medicaid Beneficiaries With Advanced Cancer," currently in press for the JCO OP. Welcome, Dr. Tsui, and thank you for joining me on the podcast. Thanks so much. Thanks for having me. I have no conflicts of interest with this study whatsoever. Dr. Tsui, can you please tell me a little bit about what exactly constitutes high or low-quality end-of-life care? Sure. I mean, I think that, in this study in particular, we wanted to focus on guideline-related end-of-life care. So we wanted to see if it was possible to take a look at patterns at the end of life for breast and colorectal cancer and stage cancer cases and see sort of what the patterns were in relation to adherence to guideline adherence and what they should be receiving at the end of life. And so that included a set of measures around aggressive care related to hospitalization in the last 30 days, emergency department visits in the last 30 days of life, an ICU admission in the last 30 days of life, and chemotherapy in the last 14 days of life. These are guidelines that have been discussed and published by national organizations. And we also looked at hospice enrollment. So we looked at whether there was any hospice enrollment and whether there was hospice enrollment in the last 30 days of life, I'm sorry. Are there already data existing for various disparities in end-of-life care among different racial groups or patients of different socioeconomic status? There are. So there have been a few prior publications before our study that have shown that Medicaid patients frequently-- not just for end-of-life care, but cancer care in general-- that Medicaid patients receive lower quality of care. And there were studies done prior to ours that did show, I think, in New York, for example, that Medicaid patients had lower-quality end-of-life care compared to Medicaid and privately insured patients. We have seen other studies also mentioning disparities by race in terms of quality of end-of-life care. However, I don't think-- some of these studies have focused on different populations and cancer sites. So some of the studies I mentioned looked at AYA, adolescent and young adult cancer survivors. Other studies have focused on other cancer sites. And also, these were studies that were conducted in earlier time period. And what we know is that, given all that's happened since the Affordable Care Act and Medicaid expansion in several states, sort of the Medicaid population has changed, but sort of health care delivery has been redesigned in different ways. And so that was really why we wanted to look at this issue sort of in more recent years and during a period that spanned Medicaid expansion within New Jersey. You know, that's helpful to understand what sort of prompted you to do this. So why don't you tell our listeners basically how you designed your study. Sure. So this was a large data linkage that we established within the state of New Jersey to better understand cancer care quality for breast and colorectal cancer patients in general, so beyond just the stage IV cancer patients, the patient's diagnosis at stage IV, but breast and colorectal cancer patients in general. So we worked with our New Jersey State Cancer Registry, identified all our breast and colorectal cancer cases that were diagnosed between 2011 and 2015, and then we linked those with our New Jersey Medicaid enrollment and claims files. So this was a study that was done in partnership with our Rutgers Center for State Health Policy. It was conducted sort of with ongoing input and feedback from both our State Cancer Registry as well as our Medicaid program. They've seen sort of findings related to this and other research questions we've had throughout the process. And what we really ended up with was a very rich data set that not only gave us all the tumor characteristics that are available in the cancer registry, but also the health care utilization patterns and Medicaid enrollment characteristics that are available on the Medicaid claims and Medicaid program data side. And how well did this database capture all of these measures of aggressive end-of-life care, so ED visits and chemotherapy and such? Since we did focus on those who were continuously enrolled in our state Medicaid program, we were able to go through our claims data and be able to, using billing codes, identify things like ED visits, et cetera. This data set only includes cancer cases up to age 64. So we didn't include people who may be dual enrolled in Medicare or have Medicare claims. We also tried to create some other restrictions so that we can get at just the people where we had a definitive diagnosis month and year and follow them through their death. And so we did use the prior studies that I mentioned earlier to see what kind of codes were used there. We have quite a multidisciplinary team of collaborators. I worked with quite closely the first author here, Annie Yang. Soon-to-be Dr. Annie Yang is in medical school here at the New Jersey Medical School. And so we did try to be as comprehensive as we could with the codes we used to identify those utilization patterns. OK, so why don't you tell us some of your findings? So I would say that the overall finding is that 62% of these stage IV breast and colorectal cancer patients received at least one measure of aggressive end-of-life care. So out of those four individual measures, 2/3 received at least one, which seems quite high. They ranged from 27% having at least one hospitalization to 34% receiving chemotherapy within the last 14 days of life. What we found is alarming, and it's sort of a call to action for addressing racial and ethnic disparities in health care, is that we found that our non-Hispanic Black patients had a higher odds of receiving any one of those aggressive end-of-life care measures after controlling for other factors. So we did find this racial/ethnic disparity in non-Hispanic Black patients having more aggressive end-of-life care compared to our non-Hispanic white patients, even though these are all the same Medicaid program. This is within one state. And so it did point to some need to better understand what is going on within the health care system, within the health care encounter between patients and physicians towards the end of life and what needs to be done to address these disproportionate rates in end-of-life care among racial/ethnic minority patients. When you talk about these numbers, like 2/3 of patients having aggressive end-of-life care and 39% enrolling in hospice, how does that compare to what would be considered a more appropriate level, say, the private insured patients? So we didn't compare it to privately insured in our state, but we did look at what was published in other states. In New York, for example, I think we had a slightly higher proportion of Medicaid enrollees with stage IV breast and colorectal cancer having more aggressive care. So we did see higher rates. So while we can't compare within our state alone, we do see that the rates are slightly higher than other published studies. Well, I guess I'm just trying to figure out, is aggressive end-of-life care something that commonly happens to all Americans in general, or is this vastly more in this population than what we would expect? In the general population? Yeah, in the general-- You know, I don't-- yeah, I don't have those rates and what our bar should be at baseline, to be honest. I do think that what we see in the end-of-life hospice literature is that there is suboptimal use of hospice care. And what we found was, again, here also sort of suboptimal use of hospice care in this diverse, low-income, Medicaid population. No, clearly, clearly, definitely so. What are some reasons why Medicaid patients would be more likely to have aggressive end-of-life care, do you think? I think Medicaid patients sort of broadly often have higher rates of comorbid conditions when they're diagnosed with cancer. There are complex social factors related to the Medicaid population in terms of being low-income, in terms of other social determinants of health and social needs that increase barriers to care or barriers to high-quality care or continuity of care. In another paper that we published that focuses on this data linkage in the population and this data linkage, there was a lack of primary care utilization prior to cancer diagnosis as well as a lot of the cancer patients in Medicaid enrolling in Medicaid upon diagnosis, right? So I think that there are sort of just several multi-level factors that contribute to why there may be higher rates of aggressive end-of-life care. I think, from a patient perspective, there is a literature out there on the need for communication tools and sort of interaction and inclusion of caregivers that are a part of the decision-making in end-of-life care. Certainly, we've seen in the literature for a while the issue of providers and providers not only being sort of culturally competent or racial and ethnic concordant, but having the tools that they need, both for the physician or the health care team, to have these end-of-life discussions. So I think it's very multi-level and certainly not just either on the patient or the physician. Even within the Medicaid population, so independent just of the, say, the financial pressures that would lead one to enroll in Medicaid, what you showed was that non-Hispanic Black patients had a much higher rate of aggressive end-of-life care even than the overall Medicaid population. And why do you think that would be true? Yeah, so after we finished the analysis for this, we definitely did reach out to other colleagues who have worked in the communities more closely within New Jersey, within the non-Hispanic Black population across New Jersey. We've also talked to our state Medicaid program to, one, think of sort of action items for how to better understand what we're seeing in the quantitative administrative data here, and then two, how to engage communities to understand what to do next about this. So from the literature and from sort of racial/ethnic disparities literature, we do know that there is often mistrust of the medical system. There's underutilization of preventive screenings, and there are physician biases and structural biases that occur along the way, so again, the multi-level factors that impact why there may be disproportionate aggressive end-of-life care in the non-Hispanic Black population. You know, we can't answer those questions with Medicaid claims and enrollment files. We can identify these patterns. And I think what our research team has been in communication with our state Medicaid program to do next is then figure out, how do we talk with some of these communities across the state to figure out what the appropriate community-level education tools might be needed to improve an understanding of what end-of-life options are, but also to focus on the hospitals and health care systems that may be disproportionately seeing some of the-- that may be seeing higher proportions of non-Hispanic Black patients, and how can we engage the health care teams within those settings to figure out what can be done at the health care delivery level? Do you think we have enough information to make interventions now? I mean, are there-- how do you think, aside from further study and trying to understand it better, we might, in the short term, improve rates of quality end-of-life care in these high-risk patients? We've seen-- and we've talked about this, I think, in this field somewhat-- is, one, there are guidelines. And just having health care teams, providers, hospitals understand where they are, sort of tracking where they are in rates of aggressive end-of-life care and in hospice enrollment, and having that feedback and audit loop to kind of look introspectively within the health care delivery setting, I think is one option that we've seen in terms of trying to increase quality and increase adherence to guidelines for other things. And then I certainly think that there might be a need for community-level interventions around, what are the barriers to hospice enrollment? Or where is the lack of awareness and knowledge around end-of-life care options? And what does it mean to reduce interventional care, right? And what does it mean for communities? I think that targeting those aspects and having a dialogue that is responsive to the community-level needs are probably ways that we can start. I think that makes sense. I mean, as an oncologist, a city with a high minority population, I think improving the cultural competence and being able to establish a level of trust with patients who may have an inherent distrust of the medical system, especially when you're talking about something like that's as counterintuitive as trying to recommend not doing more aggressive care, it's certainly a complex conversation and definitely would require a level of trust and communication in order to do that properly. So I completely agree with you that I think, on the community level, the interventions will have to involve that if it's going to be effective. So Dr. Tsui, thanks so much for joining me on the podcast today. Thank you for having me. And until next time, thank you to our listeners for listening to this JCO Oncology Practice podcast. If you enjoyed what you heard today, don't forget to give us a rating or a review on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen. While you're there, be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. JCO OP podcasts are just one of ASCO's many podcasts programs. You can find all the recordings at podcast.asco.org. The full text of this paper will be available online at ascopubs.org/journal/op. This is Dr. Nate Pennell for the JCO Oncology Practice, signing off.   The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. This is not a substitute for professional medical care and is not intended for use in the diagnosis or treatment of individual conditions. Guests on this podcast express their own opinions, experience, and conclusions. The mention of any product, service, organization, activity, or therapy should not be construed as an ASCO endorsement. For more original research, editorials, and review articles, please visit us online at jco.org. This production is copyrighted to the American Society of Clinical Oncology. Thank you for listening.

Dr. Pennell and Dr. Jan Franko discuss Dr. Franko’s article, “Effect of surgical oncologist turnover on hospital volume and treatment outcomes among patients with upper gastrointestinal malignancies”   Hello, and welcome to the latest JCO Oncology Practice podcast, brought to you by the ASCO Podcast Network, a collection of nine programs covering a range of educational and scientific content and offering enriching insight into the world of cancer care. You can find all recordings, including this one, at podcast.asco.org. My name is Dr. Nate Pennell, medical oncologist at The Cleveland Clinic and consultant editor for the JCO OP. I have no conflicts of interest related to this podcast, and a complete list of disclosures is available at the end of the podcast. Today, I'd like to talk a little bit about the impact that physician shortages can have on cancer care in the United States. While there are some parts of the country, for example Boston or New York, where you can't turn around without tripping over a specialist in some field or another of medicine, for much of the vast geographic expanse of the United States, especially outside of larger cities, there's areas that lack adequate specialty physician coverage, perhaps having either small numbers or even a single practitioner covering large areas. Now, this is very important for patient care because most cancer patients get their treatment in community settings closer to their home and not at large academic centers. But how does this impact care when, for example, specialized surgical services are needed and no one's available close to home? With me today to discuss this topic is Dr. Jan Franko, chief of the division of surgical oncology at Mercy One Medical Center in Des Moines, Iowa. We'll be discussing his paper, Effect of Surgical Oncologist Turnover on Hospital Volume and Treatment Outcomes Among Patients With Upper Gastrointestinal Malignancies, which is currently in press at the JCO OP. Welcome, Dr. Franco, and thank you for joining me on this podcast. Thank you for this opportunity, Dr. Pennell. It's my pleasure. I do not have any conflicts of interest with this work. Thank you for that. So we hear in the media about shortages of physicians, especially in underserved areas. How common would it be that a larger community hospital would lack access to, say, a surgical oncologist? Just to give you an example, the city where I practice currently has about 750,000 people with surrounding suburbs. And we had a shortage of surgical oncologists for about two years, where I can recall that one of the large hospital systems lost entire radiation oncology department. So for nearly two years, until they hired three new radiation oncologists, they actually could not do any radiation. We ourselves have been a flagship for many decades for gynecologic oncologists. We lost one about three or four years ago and since then we can't hire, and then on top of that, I recall that about three years ago, we had one year where 90% of urologists left the town. After 12 urologists, about eight or nine had to leave, and they came back for different practice within the same locality. But it was about a year plus without adequate urology workforce. So these things do happen. No, I could imagine, especially for specialties that are relatively small to begin with. And just to put this in perspective, can you explain a little bit about what exactly is a surgical oncologist, and how does that differ from, say, a general surgeon who may also do some cancer surgeries? So thank you for this question. I mean, I myself am a surgical oncologist. And I suspect there will be a lot of different definitions. For me, it's would be a general surgeon who is focused on a cancer treatment. General surgeons do treat both cancers but also trauma and general surgical conditions, common gallbladders, hernia. But a subset of surgeons have focused on cancer. And the majority of those have accredited fellowship. These surgeons, in my opinion, should maintain a broad spectrum of practice. For example, not only liver and pancreas but liver, pancreas, and stomach and esophagus and other organs. And what's also very important for them is to cultivate multi-specialty understanding of how to transition the care between an operation, systemic therapies, and radiation oncology so they can maintain a momentum of cancer control and [INAUDIBLE] surgery or avoid an operation. And when it comes to the question be able to execute even the complex operations. And given the complexity of cancer care these days and how multidisciplinary it is, I would imagine that most surgical oncologists are centered around academic university hospitals as opposed to working out in more rural areas or community hospitals. Is that the case or are they pretty much available everywhere? So indeed, you are right. It, in fact, was published in the Annals of Surgical Oncology around 2018 and 2019. An absolute majority of surgical oncologists are centered at the university hospitals or NCI-designated cancer centers. The number varies, but for example, in Iowa, more than 80% of such a workforce is concentrated in the single university center, which is outside of our town. And that number ranges from approximately 65% up to 90% of surgical oncologists working for the university, not the community hospital. That makes sense. If you were a patient who needed specialty surgical care for, say, pancreas cancer or esophageal cancer and you didn't have a hospital with a surgical oncologist nearby, what do they usually do? Is this something that's handled by a local surgeon or do they travel to academic centers to get that care? So this is subject of lots of research. And I think there is a dramatic geographical variation. And also there is a variation depending on the patients and their socioeconomic status and understanding of the situation. Plus, another question which is not discussed, how long is it reasonable to travel? How far? So I do think that complex surgical therapy should be done by people who do have experience in that. And what is experience that can be defined by number of cases, but does doing 10 pancreases improve you in operating on the stomach as well, I would believe there is some degree of cross-fertilization. Is it reasonable for people to travel for an operation 100 miles, 150, 200? Probably not reasonable, as long as they get a quality care closer to home. Yeah. It certainly would put a burden on them, and you could think that their follow up care might be compromised by being so far away as well. Yeah. I agree with that. One has to understand that the discharge from the hospital after operation by far doesn't mean end of the surgical care or at least it should not. Patients are these days discharged from operations very quickly. Various tricks, sometimes surgeons let them stay in the town in a hotel, which I don't know how good discharge that is. But then they're coming back for unexpected postoperative either complications or troubles, which do not amount to major complications, that has to be readily available. So there are mechanisms how people can do that, but can you really do it on a distance of 100 miles? With that in mind, can you take us through your study? What were you trying to show? Thank you. This was almost classical before-and-after study. But it was not only before or after but was before the last surgical oncologist and the short period of time that we didn't have it. And the largest period of time when we actually regained surgical oncologist, which is how I came to the local practice. And I'm still practicing here for about 12 years. So the whole study spanned over about 15 years, between 2001 and 2015, and looked at the patients who are typically taken care of by a surgical oncologist and not focusing on the technically rather simpler procedures on, let's say, skin cancer. So we focused here because of complexity and inherent risk on the esophagus cancer, gastric cancer, and pancreatic cancer. For reason of this study we looked at carcinomas only and excluded neuroendocrine tumor, benign conditions, gastrointestinal stromal tumors, and others. And we only focused on those conditions which could be potentially resectable, because otherwise there is no practical influence of surgical oncologist for a majority of therapy. So for esophagus and gastric cancer, we looked at stage I through III and for pancreatic cancer on stage I to II. Stage III, in general, historically was never considered for an operation. Might be changing currently, but it was not in the past. So in 2006, our prior very excellent surgical oncologist simply retired. And the next two years, very clearly, there was no surgical oncologist in the hospital. And they observed the proportion of these diagnoses, and they observed that during the time that there was no identifiable surgical oncologist responsible for advising and executing surgical care on those patients, the number of referral cases dropped dramatically down. Some went down from about 12.2% of these cancers diagnosed within this hospital as compared to the state, to down to only about 6.7% of all state cancers being diagnosed in that particular hospital, which at that time was missing surgical oncologist. Once the new surgical oncologist, which was myself coming back, was able to restore those services or perhaps the confidence of referring physicians and the society at large better, and it returned back to the prior numbers, again diagnosing and treating approximately 12% of the state volume of these neoplasms. We also wanted to see if we could not compare that to SEER database within the state of Iowa, that we obviously asked the question, did the number of these cancers for those two years somehow decrease in the state of Iowa? And it did not. So at the state level, there was maintaining of the trend of the annual diagnoses, but in the particular hospital they were not apparent there. So we assumed that they out-migrated to other institutions. And empirically and by discussion by other physicians who were here in this time, they clearly out-migrated to different systems and out of town. They were simply not present with this hospital. We looked at the overall survival as perhaps the most important measure of efficacy of therapy. And we were able to restore the surgical oncology quality to the point that survival after the new surgical oncologist came was not worse, perhaps even improved in some situations. And there also was more of a higher proportion of patients undergoing multidisciplinary therapy. That means either chemotherapy or radiation or combination of those in addition to surgery. That will be expected general trend over the last 15 or 20 years, but it was very reassuring. We could actually see it to be restored back once the surgical oncologist services became available. And how well do you think the overall state SEER numbers reflect the real results that you would see in your patient population there? I think it reflects very tightly about the reality. Now, SEER has been demonstrated on a nationwide level to be very effective and very precise with a very low rate of the errors. Interestingly, and many don't know that Iowa was one of the original states where the SEER Database has been established and participated in the program since 1973. And to some degree, it could be driven by the fact that there are not too many hospitals which actually have cancer registry. So in reality, you don't have to train that many registrars. But those registrars and individual cancer centers actually support both the SEER Database and other databases, including the National Cancer Database. So there is historically, for perhaps some nearly 50 years, of consistent reporting of data. So I have a lot of trust in the data reported, especially from Iowa. In the paper, I noted that you, over time, as we get closer to the modern time, that the outcomes seem to improve. At least compared to the time before the previous surgical oncologist was there, is that because the new surgeon was more skilled or is it that outcomes just overall are improving as we move on and have new treatments? I think it's completely explained by the overall improvement of care of the years and multidisciplinary treatment. I had a distinct pleasure to, for about two or three operations, operate with a surgeon who continues to work in Iowa-- he's in mid 70s-- in the minor procedures, and that's an excellent surgeon. Definitely could observe it. So while many people like to think that it is because of one person or one surgeon, there's not one surgeon. It is really the whole system maintain adequacy compared to improvements, which we experienced over the last 15 years in the care overall. So I think it's the whole team, as it would be expected, gets better over time. I think you did a very nice job of illustrating the major impact that losing a surgical oncologist has on our health system. Dramatic changes in the numbers of patients treated over time. So is there a message that health systems who maybe have only one or a couple specialists in various fields can take from this? How should they be addressing potential loss of their relatively small numbers of crucial specialists? I think this is great point, and all that I can advise would be consideration and planning. And while I do think that some specialties with low frequency of practitioners, like surgical oncology, are at risk, there are many other specialties. And, in fact, every single specialty could be at some degree of risk, because a medical oncologist, the level of the knowledge which is required to practice with all the molecular studies and immunotherapies is enhancing, essentially doubling every year or two. So sub-specialization within even medical radiation oncology is also ongoing. So I think every health care system is at a risk of losing some portion of its common skill if a key individual is to leave. So surprisingly, as I mentioned at the early parts of our podcast, we actually lost, not in our hospital but in another large hospital, an entire group of radiation oncologists. Hard to believe that it occurs in a city of 750,000. But it did happen. So I think that planning and perhaps more research and attention into who delivers care, not only how, but who delivers the care, into how do we cultivate our cadre of nurses, physicians, nurse practitioners, or extenders, it becomes extremely important, perhaps at least as important as the buildings, because it's really the professionals who create the program. And those gaps-- you know, I definitely experienced this gap. I came and I thought I would take over a working practice. There was no practice. That is not necessarily important about me, but what about the community which actually experienced this decline? And I would submit that every health care system in some form or another, whether large or small, is in some degree of a risk if they do not address the planning, career transition of the services which are often perceived as granted and available until those who do them are actually not present. Dr. Franko, thanks so much for joining me on the podcast today. Thank you very much, Dr. Pennell. It was my pleasure. And for the listeners out there, until next time, thank you for listening to this JCO Oncology Practice podcast. If you enjoyed what you heard today, don't forget to give us a rating or review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. While you're there, be sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. JCO OP Podcasts are just one of ASCO's many podcast programs. You can find all recordings at podcast.asco.org. The full text of this paper will be available online at asco.org/journal/op. This is Dr. Nate Pennell for the JCO Oncology Practice signing off.

Dr. Pennell, Dr. Khosa and Dr. Marshall discuss the recent JCO OP publication, “Gender Differences in Faculty Rank and Leadership Positions Among Hematologists and Oncologists in the United States”   Welcome to the latest JCO Oncology Practice podcast, brought to you by the ASCO podcast network, a collection of nine programs covering a range of educational and scientific content, and offering enriching insight into the world of cancer care. You can find all recordings, including this one, at podcast.asco.org. my name is Dr. Nate Pennell, Medical Oncologist at the Cleveland Clinic, and consultant editor for the JCOOP.   Today, I'd like to talk about sex disparities in academic oncology. Despite increasing attention in recent years, sex disparities in academic medicine clearly persist, and are most noticeable at the more senior and leadership positions within academic centers. While these disparities are well recognized, in general in medicine, what exactly is known about sex disparities in academic leadership in oncology specifically?   With me today to discuss this topic are Dr. Faisal Khosa, Associate Professor in the Department of Radiology at Vancouver General Hospital, at the University of British Columbia; and Dr. Ariela Marshall, Associate Professor of Medicine and hematologist at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota. We'll be discussing their paper, "Sex Differences in Faculty Rank and Leadership Positions Among Hematologist and Oncologists in the United States," published online in the JCOOP in February 2020.   Welcome, Faisal and Ariela, and thank you for joining me on the podcast.   Thanks so much for the invitation. We're glad to be here.   So how big of a problem is sex disparities in academic medicine, in general?   I can speak to that a little bit, and then certainly Dr. Khosa also is a world leader in this area. So he can add on to what I have to say. So I think we well know that this is a problem across the board, regardless of specialty, regardless of whether we're talking about academic rank, or position on editorial boards, or any number of other leadership positions. So we see the huge drop-off between our current medical school population, which is actually over 50% female as of the last couple of years, but then a sharp drop-off over time when we get up the ladder to then in the associate and then the full professor level, as well as positions like being hospital CEO, department chairs, and any number of other leadership positions. And I'd certainly like to hear what Dr. Khosa has to say as well.   Nathan, thank you for inviting my participation on this very important topic. I would also like to add that I have no personal or institutional conflicts of interest with this publication that we are discussing, or this particular interview that is being recorded now. I would also like to thank Dr. Irbaz Bin Riaz from Department of Hematology Oncology at Mayo Clinic, who spearheaded this project successfully, and is also the first author on this manuscript.   Yeah. Thank you for clarifying that.   I agree with Ariela's comments. Women are underrepresented in high academic ranks and leadership positions, in spite of more than 50% matriculants from medical schools across North America, US, and Canada are now women. But they represent fewer than 20% of medical school deans and department chairs. Furthermore the American Association of Medical Colleges data reveals that female physicians make $0.76 for every dollar earned by their male counterparts. And this is even after adjusting for age, experience, and discipline of practice.   Women report difficulty finding mentors and are significantly less likely to receive sponsorship. Now let me explain the difference. Mentorship is critical to the development of leadership skills or abilities, while sponsorship is a necessity to enter into leadership positions.   No. That certainly makes sense that that would be a significant barrier to academic success. I think it's interesting you mention that women now make up approximately half of physicians in medical school. I went to medical school starting in 1998, and already more than half of my class was women. Why do you think they're still seeing this disparity 20 years later?   That's a great question, and I think we can delve maybe a little bit into our paper here, in terms of what we found in hematology oncology. Because I would imagine that some of these findings are kind of similar across the board. And so what we observed here in this study is that we did see that sharp drop-off in number of associate and full professors. So what we saw, about 45% of women were assistant professors. Only about 36% of the associate professors were women. And only about 22% of the full professors were women. So there's definitely that drop-off over time. And also only about 30% of department leaders were women.   And so one thing that people bring up a lot is just time. Right? So the time to go from assistant professor to associate professor to full professor, is not measured in months or even a couple of years. It's measured in the 10, 20, 30 year time frame. So somebody say that that's probably a big driving factor, is that what we're seeing in medical school has not yet caught up, with what we're seeing in leadership positions that take years-- probably 20, 30, 40 years to achieve.   But the other thing that we can talk about a bit later is it's not just time. It's the fact that people who have those positions may stay in them for 10, 20 years, and not leave room for other people to get into those positions. And also there is differences in how long it takes women to get promoted. And if you have to achieve a certain academic rank to get one of these leadership positions, then there may be delays of women being able to do that for a number of factors that we could talk about.   There is one more factor, which is less obvious, but equally challenging, which perpetuates the problem that we are discussing here. If you look at appointment and promotions in academic medicine, and I have been fortunate that I've practiced in Europe. Then I practiced in US. And now I practice in Canada. And all my practice has been in academic institutions. Whenever somebody is being shortlisted, selected, interviewed, appointed to an academic leadership position; the sole or entire or 90% or 99% of the focus is on that individual's performance of publications, of grants, of collaboration.   Nowhere is the consideration given to a person or individual's track record, for advocacy for equity, diversity, and inclusion. Now such an individual gets into the leadership position, now they are handed a memo saying, you have to ensure equal opportunity, and you have to make sure that minorities are appointed, women are appointed, they are promoted. Now such an individual does not have innate interest, or understanding, or even expertise in equity, diversity, and inclusion.   So previously what was a bottleneck of barriers to entry for women and minorities, has now become a bottleneck and barrier to promotion and leadership positions. And this is a subtle undertaking which people overlook when they are selecting people for appointment positions.   No, I think that's a-- I hadn't thought of that. But that's a very significant factor I would think. And this gets to the larger topic of how we choose our leaders in academic medicine. We don't necessarily choose people based upon skills in leadership, and training in leadership, but rather on personal success in whatever their academic field is, which does not necessarily lend itself to being able to do the job that they've now been appointed to. Can you take us through how you designed your study?   So we started off with publicly available data. And the first thing we did was here [INAUDIBLE] we went to the website, looked at institutions that offered residency and fellowship training, because those were academic institutions by default. From there, we actually downloaded or created the lists of programs, and then visited the website of each program to obtain the list of their faculty from department chair down to the level of assistant professor in hematology and oncology. We looked at leadership positions-- director, associate director, division chief. We also looked at practice type, whether it was university, whether it was community, whether it was a combination of the two. We looked at a number of trainees. We looked at the geographic location, like state of the practice.   In addition to that, we also looked at whether it was an MD or DO, whether it was an international medical graduate faculty, the year since medical school, year since the residency, number of publications, the number of grants, the number of clinical trials, the number of first author publications, number of citations. So we made it as comprehensive as possible from our experience of what it takes for academic appointments, and what is considered vital for academic promotions and to get people into leadership positions.   Yeah, that was one of the things that I wondered, is how one really measures this. And it sounds like you did a wonderful job of trying to identify, as best you could, objective measures. There probably isn't really a way to measure bias about sex differences in appointments. So you would have to look at this using these objective measures.   I agree, Nathan. And let me add to that. What is normal? You know, we talk about normal. Normal is an illusion. What is normal for the spider is chaos for the fly. So there are many things that are tangible. Then there are many things also that those are intangible. So we can only study what is objective or objectively can be calculated or measured. But in this equation, I'll give you an example. You look at the interview panels, and most of them are males, right?   Now how are you want to configure bias in that room when a female comes in to interview? Automatically people going to presume, oh, she is married. Automatically people are going to presume, oh, she may have kids, or may she may not be able to do justice to this leadership position, this chair position or what have you. And those are things that are going on in people's heads. There is no way that you can shine a light on that.   Of course. Of course. Although, in a way you do that by trying to match everything as objectively as you can, and seeing if there's still a significant difference at the end. OK, so why don't you start taking me through what you found?   So I talked a little bit about what we had observed in terms of that drop-off in the numbers or the percentages that we see women who were of higher academic rank, and the associate professors, and then only 22% being full professors, and only 30% being leaders of their departments. We did also find that women had lower h-index. So what we could tell in terms of an objective measure of research productivity, although of course that's not by any means a perfect measure, and they also had fewer years of professional experience and fellowship; which again speaks to the fact that while there is parity in gender in medical schools currently; in terms of practicing physicians, there's still this gap.   And then we looked at the odds of obtaining full professorship or leadership of a division, after we adjusted for how long somebody had been in practice, what their productivity was; again measured by the h-index, so not the most perfect measure. And we did not find actually any differences based on sex and the odds of obtaining either professorship or divisional leadership. So again, one could call this a, quote-unquote, "negative study," and that, OK, if you correct for enough of these factors, there don't appear to be sex disparities in women being able to achieve leadership or to obtain higher academic rank.   But I think a very important thing to note is that's not the point we want to be making with this study, is that, oh there's no gender difference. There's no sex disparity here. We want to point out that this is the real world. In the real world, we don't correct for things like clinical experience and academic productivity. You can't do a mathematical correction. What we need to see is why are there things like difference in academic productivity. What are the factors that may make it more difficult for women to be able to achieve these ranks over time? What are the barriers that they're facing, and how can we try to overcome them? Because we're not in a mathematical world, where we just correct for these things, and we need to help our system change to allow women to achieve these positions of leadership.   Yeah, I'm glad that you pointed that out. Because my first read of the paper was actually, wow, they're actually concluding that there isn't a big gender difference, or a sex difference in senior leadership. But as you actually read in, there clearly could be disparities in terms of women being able to achieve the same numbers of publications, and equally high h-index and grant funding that would get them to the point where they would be in a position to get these leadership positions. So the disparity extends well beyond those positions themselves.   There's a lot of data out there that women are funded at lower rates for initial grants. And of course, you know that once somebody gets a grant, they're more likely to get other grants in the future. So putting that barrier in place from the beginning makes it harder for women to get grants over time, makes it harder for them to get published. We know that editorial boards have a lot of sex disparity. We know that as Dr. Khosa also said, there are sex disparities in leadership who are making decisions about who gets promoted. So there are all these unseen variables that we can't account for that are probably barriers to achieving these higher leadership positions.   This is something that always comes up when we talk about barriers to women moving up in leadership roles, that they may be earlier in their careers focus to some extent on raising a family, or even if they are continuing to work without a break, that they have a disproportionate share of family and home care obligations, and that this may lead to lower academic productivity. And therefore some of the measures that go into leadership promotions may not be as prominently featured on their CVs for these reasons. And so do we need to think differently about the criteria that go into promotions?   Exactly. And that's one of the points that we both wanted to make while talking with you today, is that as the saying goes we need to fix the system, not the women. For a long time, when we were told you just need to work harder, be more productive, you need to essentially "be like a man," quote-unquote. We're in a system that was developed by men, run by men, and have criteria that allow men to get promoted. And so if we apply the same criteria to women, we're essentially telling them, you need to behave like a man in order to succeed in the system. So we don't need to tell women to be like a man. We need to change the system to be more friendly for everybody.   And so that does involve things like changing what criteria we look at for promotion. As Dr. Khosa was saying, why are we just looking at the number of publications on a CV? There's a lot of other things that women do that actually make a big contribution, whether it be seeing a higher number of patients, whether it be serving on committees. We know that women are more likely to serve on committees than men, and committees are things that are unrewarded on your CV that take quite a lot of time and effort to do. So there's all these unseen things that women are doing that don't make it onto the CV as a criteria for promotion that we really need to take a much harder look at.   And at the same time, we also need to be changing the system, and to say, what are we doing wrong that allows women to be paid less than men for doing the same tasks? What are we doing wrong that we are funding women at a lower rate than men when they submit grants? What are we doing wrong that allows our editorial board and journal reviewers to continue being primarily men? So we need to really make some changes to the system, both from what supports women, and from how we judge people on a criteria for being promoted.   How do we do that, though? So I think now I mean it's hard to escape that this is a real thing. I mean you've objectively shown differences. It's been well-documented. What do we do in order to make this actually change?   I recently published a paper on Canadian health authorities. And out of the 30 manuscripts that I've published and 50 more that I'm working on, this was the only manuscript which showed clarity. There was no disparity, gender disparity. And the reason for that is because it is the governments that have mandated. And there are carrots and sticks. So if an institution's annual evaluation, or three yearly evaluations does not show progress, that institution's funding, government funding, grant funding, capsizes. And these are the metrics that are applied across health care authorities. These are the metrics by which progress is measured.   Giving out policy and not following it through, or not having repercussions is rewarding bad behavior. The best apology is actually change the behavior. That is what best apology is. Similarly, remedial action has to be avoided, and those who could persist with this behavior have to be taken to task. That is the only way.   I'm a huge fan of Dr. Julie Silver from Harvard Medical School, who is a world leader in gender equity research, very well published in this area. And she always says that if you can't measure it, you can't see it. And it's so important to measure these things. Because number one, as Dr. Khosa said, it gives a baseline for improvement. But number two, it really opens people's eyes to say, hey, we do have a problem. I think if you are trying to go to leadership and convince people that we need to implement some changes, we really need to be bringing some data with you. You can't just say, oh, we have a gender equity problem, because everybody knows it.   You need to say, this is our percentage of women who are in leadership positions. This is what's changed over time. This is what hasn't. And here's what we propose to do to fix it. And here's how we're going to measure our success. So you really need that data as a starting point, and as a measuring stick to see how well your interventions are working.   Well, I think that's a wonderful summation. So Dr. Khosa, Dr. Marshall, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today.   Thank you so much, and god bless. Have a nice day.   Thanks so much for inviting us.   Until next time, thank all of our listeners for listening to this JCO Oncology Practice podcast. If you enjoyed what you heard today, don't forget to give us a rating or a review on Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen. While you're there, be sure to subscribe, so you never miss an episode. JCOOP podcasts are just one of ASCO's as many podcast programs. You can find all recordings at podcast.asco.org. The full text of the paper is available online at ascopubs.org, backslash journal, backslash jcoop, posted February 2020. This is Dr. Nate Pennell for the JCO Oncology Practice signing off.